Joe Thornton = Steve Yzerman ?!?!

[dempsey_k]

According to Beaker, both were renowned choke artists. What say ye, wings fans?

[MotownMadman]

Hyperbole is the new English. Actually, that's an exaggeration. Hyperbole has been the American language for a while now.

Obviously I'm biased, but I don't agree with Beaker. For one, you can't conflate a team choking (which both the Sharks and Wings have) with a player choking.

The other is that Stevie and Joe are different players in different situations. You could tell that the Wings were Stevie's team. The responsibility he felt was palpable. Thornton was maybe in that situation in Boston (I honestly didn't watch him as much when he was in the East), but certainly not in San Jose. For me that's also a difference. Yzerman, as the captain, the leader, he has a different role. So when you say choke, do you mean Yzerman choked as a center or as a captain? A parallel could be drawn with Thornton for the former but not the latter.

I believe one of Beaker's points was that we look at Yzerman in hindsight, which we do out of necessity, but those are also moments that reveal his character. The goal in 96 against the Blues, playing the 2002 playoffs on one leg. Those are part of the story and cannot be removed from who Yzerman is, so for me that part of the analogy falls flat. Anyway, you can win a Cup and still not shake a reputation. Just look at Chris Osgood who is still reviled (in my mind unfairly) for being a bad goalie for the softies he has allowed.

Lastly, the knee jerk reaction. Thornton has never been a point per game player only once in the 10 playoffs he has played in. Yzerman was a point per game and scored in the double digits in 3 of the 10 playoffs he played in before winning a Cup. He was a PPG in 3 other playoffs when the Wings had early exits. One could also argue that the Sharks teams that Thornton has played on have been better teams than the Wings of the 80's, which should boost Thornton's points.

That's all I have for now, but I think my first point is the most important one.

[NewsGuyOne]

According to Beaker, both were renowned choke artists. What say ye, wings fans?

What the fuck? Is this the best you've got?
NEGREP FOR YOU

[dempsey_k]

What the fuck? Is this the best you've got?
NEGREP FOR YOU

Uh, why the love for Beaker, you don't even know him.

[Beaker]

Hyperbole is the new English. Actually, that's an exaggeration. Hyperbole has been the American language for a while now.

Obviously I'm biased, but I don't agree with Beaker. For one, you can't conflate a team choking (which both the Sharks and Wings have) with a player choking.

The other is that Stevie and Joe are different players in different situations. You could tell that the Wings were Stevie's team. The responsibility he felt was palpable. Thornton was maybe in that situation in Boston (I honestly didn't watch him as much when he was in the East), but certainly not in San Jose. For me that's also a difference. Yzerman, as the captain, the leader, he has a different role. So when you say choke, do you mean Yzerman choked as a center or as a captain? A parallel could be drawn with Thornton for the former but not the latter.

I believe one of Beaker's points was that we look at Yzerman in hindsight, which we do out of necessity, but those are also moments that reveal his character. The goal in 96 against the Blues, playing the 2002 playoffs on one leg. Those are part of the story and cannot be removed from who Yzerman is, so for me that part of the analogy falls flat. Anyway, you can win a Cup and still not shake a reputation. Just look at Chris Osgood who is still reviled (in my mind unfairly) for being a bad goalie for the softies he has allowed.

Lastly, the knee jerk reaction. Thornton has never been a point per game player only once in the 10 playoffs he has played in. Yzerman was a point per game and scored in the double digits in 3 of the 10 playoffs he played in before winning a Cup. He was a PPG in 3 other playoffs when the Wings had early exits. One could also argue that the Sharks teams that Thornton has played on have been better teams than the Wings of the 80's, which should boost Thornton's points.

That's all I have for now, but I think my first point is the most important one.

The point is that Thornton has plenty of time to lift the choker label. He is in exactly the same situation as Yzerman was in 1996, after the loss to the Avs. Same age, same playoff disappointments, same labels.

For the first part (2002 playoffs, 97 goal vs St.Louis, etc...) that is all after my comparison. My comparison is that Thornton today is at the same age as Yzerman was in 1996. Now in 1996 Yzerman was called a choker... anything that came after was him lifting that reputation, something Thornton still has the time and ability to do.

For the PPG player in the playoffs part. I argue that you are comparing Yzerman in the late 80s - early 90s, to Thornton from 2002-today. Of course Yzerman's PPG is better. However going from scoring 150pts in the regular season.. to scoring 1.0 PPG in the playoffs... is a similar drop from Thornton's 100 pts to just under 1.0 PPG.

[dempsey_k]

newsguyone, now that the situation is easier for you to understand, I expect my rep back for you acting like an oblivious moron.

[MotownMadman]

The point is that Thornton has plenty of time to lift the choker label. He is in exactly the same situation as Yzerman was in 1996, after the loss to the Avs. Same age, same playoff disappointments, same labels.

This may be my misremembering, but I don't recall Yzerman being labeled a choker, but the Wings team as a whole. That's different than Thornton who has been called a choker as opposed to necessarily his whole team.

And, as I pointed out before, Thornton is not in the same situation as Yzerman was (face of the franchise, team captain, part of a team where the city was demanding a Stanley Cup and thought about hockey during the month of August).

For the PPG player in the playoffs part. I argue that you are comparing Yzerman in the late 80s - early 90s, to Thornton from 2002-today. Of course Yzerman's PPG is better. However going from scoring 150pts in the regular season.. to scoring 1.0 PPG in the playoffs... is a similar drop from Thornton's 100 pts to just under 1.0 PPG.

The comparison in points also indicated that Yzerman provided a lot of offense for his team despite their poor showing. That is, he played a good playoffs, his team did not. With possibly two exceptions, Thornton hasn't done that.

For the first part (2002 playoffs, 97 goal vs St.Louis, etc...) that is all after my comparison. My comparison is that Thornton today is at the same age as Yzerman was in 1996. Now in 1996 Yzerman was called a choker... anything that came after was him lifting that reputation, something Thornton still has the time and ability to do.

And my point was that those subsequent moments reveal Yzerman's determination and contributions in the playoffs beyond winning a Cup. He had a good playoffs in his last post-season (at least was one of the best players the Wings had), but didn't win the Cup. No one called him a choker then because of his performance. That's what you are missing and why I brought up Chris Osgood who has won two Stanley Cups, but will never be held in the same regard as Nabakov. There is more to shaking the label than just winning the Cup.

[guinness]

No, JT is still tin man.

While he upped his level against the Wings this year, Yzerman had always been a pretty good PO performer, even in the '80's, the Wings teams themselves were pretty mediocre, and even into the mid-90's, they were mediocre, always missing a key ingredient here or there - the loses in 1995 and 1996 were horrible as a fan. (1994 was bad too, but more like WTF, did I just see that? type deal)

JT played on some decent Bruins teams, but he was never a point producer.

The Sharks have had talented teams for years, an AS in Nabokov too, and no matter how well they did as a team in the regular season, they blow it in the PO. They have the talent, but most of their big guns always disappeared.

Don't sully Trottier or Stevie with the comparison to the other #19 ATM.

BTW, Yzerman's goal in 2OT against St. Loo was in 1996. It was the Wings 70th anniversary season, same one they got bounced out by the Dives and Turtle ran Draper into the glass.