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Mr Bugg
03-02-2010, 12:04 PM
It's tough to keep it to three things, but here are the biggest problems this team has had in maintaining a consistent product:

3. Trading the Torch-Bearer

The Detroit Red Wings have been able to succeed no matter the quality of the game or salary cap because they've got the best in the game to teach youngsters.

However, not every team has had an Yzerman or has a Datsyuk, and they still seem to consistently develop talent. Why is that? It's because there's a consistent chain of progression.

Here's what the Oilers looked like at center in 2003-04:

Mike York (Age 25)
Shawn Horcoff (Age 24)
Jarret Stoll (Age 21)
Adam Oates (Age 41)

And in 2005-06, the next season after the lock-out:

Shawn Horcoff (26)
Jarret Stoll (Age 23)
Mike Peca (Age 31)
Marty Reasoner (Age 28)

No Datsyuks or Fedorovs here, but there's a clear chain of progression. It's no surprise that Stoll had a career-best season in 05-06 as he was isolated by three veteran centers. The year before that, he had Oates teaching him the position.

2006-07:

Shawn Horcoff (Age 27)
Jarret Stoll (Age 24)
Marty Reasoner (Age 29)
Toby Petersen (Age 27)

Not the best year, obviously, but the plan was still there: Stoll was given greater responsibility, and while he wasn't scoring as much, he was looking like a dominant #3 prior to his concussion.

Summer 2007 was an off-season of change. Out went Reasoner, with no veteran replacement. The team was forced to enter the year like this:

Shawn Horcoff (Age 28)
Sam Gagner (Age 18)
Jarret Stoll (Age 25)
Kyle Brodziak (Age 23)

It was a minor miracle that things weren't worse. Brodziak more than covered the bet, Stoll remained a face-off demon despite having a head of scrambled eggs, and Horcoff did yeoman's work. Sam Gagner had an epic year.

Lowe should have been grateful Anaheim didn't end up with a top ten pick, and immediately sought to rectify the situation down the middle with a valuable lesson learned. But...

2008-09

Shawn Horcoff (Age 29)
Sam Gagner (Age 19)
Kyle Brodziak (Age 24)
Marc Pouliot (Age 23)

Summer 2009 comes, and out goes Brodziak for couple of late lottery tickets. Again, fine move in isolation- Brodziak wanted more than Lowe thought he was worth. A rational observer would assume Lowe obviously thought he could get the same sort of help for cheaper. And he was right- Dominic Moore and Manny Malhotra signed for pennies on the dollar. But neither ended up in Edmonton. In fact, nobody was signed.

2009-10

Shawn Horcoff (Age 30)
Sam Gagner (Age 20)
Andrew Cogliano (Age 22)
Ryan Stone (Age 24)

Beyond just ignoring an obvious need, Lowe has simply refused to provide his young centers with a stable situation in which they can develop and surprise. It's fine when Sam Gagner shows he can play the top-six role at that point- you just demote your #2. Instead, he expects surprises, and is absolutely baffled when it doesn't happen. It's like surviving a lemon parachute during a skydiving session and then going out the next day without one. By constantly trading the next-oldest in the progression, he constantly resets the development clock.


2. Drafting for Role

Olivier Roy, Toni Rajala, Linus Omark... all are players one would think a 'safe' team wouldn't touch. But it's tough not argue the team fell into those players rather than actively pursuing them. Case-in-point: the 2009 Draft.

It is my personal philosophy that every pick in the Draft should be treated like a first round pick. The odds might be worse, sure, but it's a chance to draft a player that can potentially help your team as a first-line or first-pairing player.

However, in order to find those players, you need to draft the skillset that lends itself to a first-line player. You aren't going to get that in a Zack Stortini. You certainly as **** aren't going to get that in a Cameron Abney.

Now, Kevin Lowe might say something like "But you can't draft all 5'9 Swedes with soft hands". No, but contrary to what he might believe from his draft template, Detroit doesn't do that either. They take hockey sense no matter the package it comes in- whether it's big and fast (Johan Franzen) or small and slow (Jiri Hudler).

After all, if Franzen doesn't develop into a top-six forward, no problem. You utilize what he does bring and turn him into that 3rd liner you might not have. Hudler didn't become a first liner; that's fine, because the Wings utilized him as a soft-parade second PP guy and they won the Cup.

But if you draft for the 3rd for 4th line, you can't go up. If you believe a player's peak potential is a 4th line fighter, what can you turn them into if they don't reach develop NHL-level fighting/skating ability?

The Oilers need to shoot higher with their later picks.


1. Overpaying Up Front

The most troubling trend throughout the Lowe/Tambellini era has been the team's baffling trend of overpaying a player in the front half of a contract in the hopes the back half of the deal is 'worth it'.

Lowe essentially spelled that strategy out word-for-word when he attempted to defend the Dustin Penner offer sheet on Edmonton radio. And while he didn't come out and say it at other times, this philosophy is evident in any number of new Oiler contracts the last two years- Tom Gilbert, Shawn Horcoff, Ethan Moreau.

This is a simply staggering misunderstanding of contracts in a cap world. In the old days, yes, teams would overpay for this exact reason. A team was considered lucky if a big free agency signing didn't come out of the gate flat the next year. Now? Parity reigns supreme. If a player can't over-deliver their contract every year you probably aren't going to win.

Lowe attempted to rectify that somewhat with his 'salary grid', but this seems like another attempt to copy other organizations (2) without fully understanding why the approach works. It's like buying a Mona Lisa paint-by-numbers set and thinking you're Da Vinci.

Is it possible for a team to overcome one or two overpays? Absolutely. The best organizations in the league carry an albatross or two (see: Campbell, Brian and Theodore, Jose). That's the price of doing business with volatile assets like professional athletes. But Lowe has applied this strategy to almost every re-sign since the Cup run. That's why we're where we are today.

Conclusion

All three of the above share a common theme: underestimation. Lowe's philosophy has been that if you play it safe you'll do a good job. And he's right- throughout the pre-cap era, the Oilers were consistently a middle-road team, never great but never poor. But teams aren't built to win 8th in the West. They're built to be contenders.

Kevin Lowe doesn't understand that and it appears Steve Tambellini doesn't either.

Cao
03-04-2010, 10:12 PM
I fully agree with you about point 2. The draft picks Burke and Nonis wasted on useless fucking fighters pisses me off to no end, and it honestly surprises me that teams still do that. People always wonder why Detroit is so good at drafting; surprise, it's because they're taking chances on skilled players instead of drafting meatheads.

Traktor
03-05-2010, 11:34 AM
I disagree with your drafting philosophy.

To me 40 point player that can agitate, drop the mitts and punish defenders on the forecheck is much more valuable than a 65 point guy that doesn't play with an edge.

I'll take an elite 3rd/4th line player over a vanilla top 6 player any day of the week.

Sure, Toni Rajala might end up as top 6 player but if he has to face off against Mike Richards, Ryan Kesler or Ryan Getzlaf who cares.

I thought Jordan Bendfeld was a wasted pick but I didn't mind the Abney pick. He can skate, hold his own defensively and is a legit heavyweight. He has a chance to be an elite 4th line player. He has a chance to be one of the best players in his role.

Cody Eakin on the other hand is NEVER going to be one of the best players in his role. He's never going to be an elite top 6 player. He might end up a better play than Abney but Abney has a better chance at being an impact player in his role.

dashingsilverfox
03-05-2010, 11:38 AM
Hey Traktor...welcome abroad.

theoil
03-05-2010, 12:14 PM
I disagree with your drafting philosophy.

To me 40 point player that can agitate, drop the mitts and punish defenders on the forecheck is much more valuable than a 65 point guy that doesn't play with an edge.

I'll take an elite 3rd/4th line player over a vanilla top 6 player any day of the week.

Sure, Toni Rajala might end up as top 6 player but if he has to face off against Mike Richards, Ryan Kesler or Ryan Getzlaf who cares.

I thought Jordan Bendfeld was a wasted pick but I didn't mind the Abney pick. He can skate, hold his own defensively and is a legit heavyweight. He has a chance to be an elite 4th line player. He has a chance to be one of the best players in his role.

Cody Eakin on the other hand is NEVER going to be one of the best players in his role. He's never going to be an elite top 6 player. He might end up a better play than Abney but Abney has a better chance at being an impact player in his role.

Welcome abroad Traktor. I have been following your war against 'the converted' over at Lowetides off and on for quite a while now. I think you will find your energies better spent here since the religious rarely convert more than once in their lifetime. :danson:

Giant Moo
03-05-2010, 12:19 PM
Welcome abroad Traktor. I have been following your war against 'the converted' over at Lowetides off and on for quite a while now. I think you will find your energies better spent here since the religious rarely convert more than once in their lifetime. :danson:

Every time the salary cap comes up over there, Horcoff is the $5.5M elephant in the room.

Traktor
03-05-2010, 12:50 PM
Bugg:

I should clarify that I don't totally disagree with what you are saying, I think we should aim high in the later rounds, I'm just not sure we agree on what "high" is.

I certainly have no problem drafting a player that has a 10% chance of becoming Bob Probert over a player that has a 10% chance at becoming Ray Whitney.

Raoul Duke
03-05-2010, 12:53 PM
I'll take an elite 3rd/4th line player over a vanilla top 6 player any day of the week.

Sure, Toni Rajala might end up as top 6 player but if he has to face off against Mike Richards, Ryan Kesler or Ryan Getzlaf who cares. .

Exactly man. Best first post I've seen in a while. Welcome aboard Traktor.

Traktor
03-05-2010, 01:14 PM
Thanks for the welcome.

Mr Bugg
03-05-2010, 01:14 PM
I'll take an elite 3rd/4th line player over a vanilla top 6 player any day of the week.

Who do you consider elite 3rd/4th line players?



Sure, Toni Rajala might end up as top 6 player but if he has to face off against Mike Richards, Ryan Kesler or Ryan Getzlaf who cares.

But Cameron Abney would never be on the ice when Getzlaf, Kesler or Richards are, either. After all, as you define a little later on, Abney would be on the fourth line. Rajala has the basic skills to be a player who CAN compete head-to-head with them. The rest of it is up to him and the development staff.


I thought Jordan Bendfeld was a wasted pick but I didn't mind the Abney pick. He can skate, hold his own defensively and is a legit heavyweight. He has a chance to be an elite 4th line player. He has a chance to be one of the best players in his role.

In almost every case, 'elite 4th liners' are either 1st/2nd rounders who failed to translate their junior game to the pro ranks, are older vets who change their style of play to remain in the game, or are late round/undrafted players who have made it on effort rather than skill.

Let's take a look at the Stanley Cup champs since the lock-out:

2008-09 Pittsburgh Penguins

LW Pascal Dupuis (8:23 TOI)- Undrafted FA
C Craig Adams (9:44 TOI)- 9th round pick, 1996
RW Miro Satan (9:54 TOI)- 35-year-old former 30-goal scorer

2007-08 Detroit Red Wings

LW Kirk Maltby (9:47 TOI)- 3rd rd '92 (50-41-91)
C Darren Helm (7:30 TOI)- 5th round '05.
RW Darren McCarty (6:22 TOI)- 2nd rd '92 (55-72-127)

2006-07 Anaheim Ducks

LW Brad May (7:21 TOI)- 1st rd, 14th overall '90 (33-58-91)
C Ryan Shannon (4:03 TOI)- Undrafted NCAA free agent
RW Shawn Thornton (3:57 TOI)- 7th round, 1997

2005-06 Carolina Hurricanes

LW Andrew Ladd (9:27 TOI)- 1st round 2004 (4th overall)
C Craig Adams (8:15 TOI)- 9th round pick, 1996
RW Chad LaRose (8:57 TOI)- Undrafted free agent

I don't see a single player that was drafted higher than the 5th round merely on the basis of one day playing on a fourth line. That's just not what smart teams do with their picks as fourth liners almost quite literally grow on trees. After all, you can convert almost any top nine player into a fourth liner. But you can't convert a fourth liner into a top-six player.


Cody Eakin on the other hand is NEVER going to be one of the best players in his role. He's never going to be an elite top 6 player. He might end up a better play than Abney but Abney has a better chance at being an impact player in his role.

Again, the above case study shows that's that simply not true. Eakin might not be an elite top six player. He might never even be a top six player. But you can take his speed and hockey sense and turn him into Darren Helm 2.0. Barring some truly freakish developlment, you can't do that with Abney. If Abney does not reach his max potential he's useless to an NHL team.

Traktor
03-05-2010, 02:02 PM
Who do you consider elite 3rd/4th line players?

Clutterbuck, Callahan, Neil, Cooke, Gaustad, Carcillo, Rupp, Laperrere, Lucic, Jarkko Ruutu...

But Cameron Abney would never be on the ice when Getzlaf, Kesler or Richards are, either. After all, as you define a little later on, Abney would be on the fourth line. Rajala has the basic skills to be a player who CAN compete head-to-head with them.

Rajala has the basic skills to go against the Samsanov's and Jussi Jokinen's of the world but once he goes against a real top 6 player he will get slaughtered.

Can Rajala also play on the 4th line? Probably. Can he change the tone of the game physically or stick up for teammates? No.

Can Abney play against Samsonov? No. Can he change the tone physically and stick up for teammates? Yes.

In almost every case, 'elite 4th liners' are either 1st/2nd rounders who failed to translate their junior game to the pro ranks, are older vets who change their style of play to remain in the game, or are late round/undrafted players who have made it on effort rather than skill.

Most of the players I named are late round picks.

I don't see a single player that was drafted higher than the 5th round merely on the basis of one day playing on a fourth line.

I have no clue what you are trying to point out? You leave out names like Cooke and Neil and replace them with Ryan "5 foot 5" Shannon and Miro Satan. Those aren't elite 3rd/4th line players. Those are vanilla players.

After all, you can convert almost any top nine player into a fourth liner. But you can't convert a fourth liner into a top-six player.

I don't care if Eakin can carve out a career on the 4th line if he fails to make it as a scorer. Can he drop the mitts if needed? If not then I don't care. Marty Reasoner/Blair Betts are a dime a dozen. Bob Probert/Milan Lucic are 1 in a million. Which one is more valuable?

There's a reason why guys like Liam Reddox and Jason Krog pass though waivers every time.

If Abney does not reach his max potential he's useless to an NHL team.

True. But having 50 useful players doesn't do anything when you can only carry 23 on a roster. Aim for quality not quantity. Aim for unique skillsets, not guys that have a 90% chance at becoming Blair Betts if the fail to become Jussi Jokinen.

Traktor
03-05-2010, 02:22 PM
Bugg:

Who do you draft if you had the choice?

Brad Ross or Jordan Weal?

Granlund or Nino?

I take the two Portland kids myself.

Mr Bugg
03-05-2010, 02:50 PM
Clutterbuck, Callahan, Neil, Cooke, Gaustad, Carcillo, Rupp, Laperrere, Lucic, Jarkko Ruutu...

Clutterbuck: Again, doesn't fit the Abney mold. 35 goals and 139 PIM in his draft year, 89 points the year after.

Callahan: Not Cam Abney either. 4th round pick who scored 68 points.

Rupp: Originally a 9th overall pick.

Neil: Sixth round pick.

Laperriere: 7th round pick.

Lucic: The absolute closest comparison to Abney, and Lucic experienced that freakish development curve that is lightning in a bottle. Year after being drafted, Lucic scored 30 goals and 68 points. Abney will not get 30 points this year.

Cooke: 6th round pick.

Gaustad: 7th round pick.

Carcillo: 3rd round pick, but again, 30-goal scorer that season.

Ruutu: Full-time player in SM-Liiga. 10 goals and 166 PIM, unheard of in that league for a U20 player.

Only one of them meets your criteria, and I'm beginning to think you believe every enforcer will become Milan Lucic if drafted high enough.


Rajala has the basic skills to go against the Samsanov's and Jussi Jokinen's of the world but once he goes against a real top 6 player he will get slaughtered.

As would Abney?


Can Rajala also play on the 4th line? Probably. Can he change the tone of the game physically or stick up for teammates? No.

Again, you don't seem to understand this: fourth line players play against other fourth line players. This is a myth of 'old time hockey' that simply has no basis in reality. Enforcers don't win you Cups.


I have no clue what you are trying to point out? You leave out names like Cooke and Neil and replace them with Ryan "5 foot 5" Shannon and Miro Satan. Those aren't elite 3rd/4th line players. Those are vanilla players.


The forwards listed were the bottom three in TOI on their respective teams in the playoffs- ie 4th liners.

What I'm pointing out is that your philosophy is laughable. It's humorous the players you consider 'vanilla players' contributed to the last four Cup winners, yet your so-called 'elite 4th liners' are nowhere to be found. That should be an eye-opener but I can tell it's not getting through.


I don't care if Eakin can carve out a career on the 4th line if he fails to make it as a scorer. Can he drop the mitts if needed? If not then I don't care. Marty Reasoner/Blair Betts are a dime a dozen. Bob Probert/Milan Lucic are 1 in a million. Which one is more valuable?

Option C) Zetterberg/Datsyuk, but you've already stated it's not a good idea to draft seven small Euros every year. So why does it make sense to do the same with coke machines like Abney, Eddie Caron, etc. etc. who get a handful goals a year?

Mr Bugg
03-05-2010, 02:57 PM
Bugg:

Who do you draft if you had the choice?

Brad Ross or Jordan Weal?

Granlund or Nino?

I take the two Portland kids myself.

Patrick Kane or Jakub Voracek? Bryan Little or James Sheppard?

Traktor
03-06-2010, 12:28 PM
What I'm pointing out is that your philosophy is laughable. It's humorous the players you consider 'vanilla players' contributed to the last four Cup winners, yet your so-called 'elite 4th liners' are nowhere to be found. That should be an eye-opener but I can tell it's not getting through.

If you don't think Ryan Shannon and players of his ilk are vanilla that's fine. I disagree.

Fourth liners almost quite literally grow on trees

I agree, which is why I don't understand what the allure is if Cody Eakin can make it as a 4th line player if he doesn't make it in the top 6.

Sometimes an elite field goal kicker is more important than a run-of-the-mill wide receiver.

If you like everything that the Detroit does, great man. I suspect many teams tried to emulate what the Oilers did after their success too.

Ask yourself this though: Which player is more readily available on the free agent market? Guys like Stortini, Janssen, Boll, Neil, Clarkson or guys like Betts, Reasoner, Toby Petersen, Ryan Shannon? Guys like Neil are so unique that clubs were offering 2.5 x 4 for him. Double the amount of a player like Reasoner. Why is that?

I don't draft vanilla players because vanilla players are the easiest players to acquire via free agency for reasonable rates (Reasoner 1.15).

Draft players at the extreme end of their skill set (Helm has unbelievable speed with junkyard dog fight), whether it be skill, toughness or heart. Abney was the toughest player in the draft and the guy can actually skate unlike the Derek Boogaard's of the world.

Lastly, it doesn't matter how much skill a guy has, if he can't/won't be first to the puck/take a hit to make a play/keep position of the puck then leave him for another team.

Patrick Kane or Jakub Voracek? Bryan Little or James Sheppard?

I take Kane and Little.

I was honestly asking your opinion though.

I love Nino's game. I think his high end is Shanahan and his low end is Morrow. Ross looks like a beauty in the Steve Ott mold.

I've only seen the Finn in the WJC but I didn't like his game at all. I've seen reports that he was battling injury but it was his decision making that I didn't like. A couple times he had 2 or 3 different options on the PP and just tried some behind the leg BS and turned the puck over. This was in 1-1 or 2-1 type games. Didn't see much urgency. His numbers are pretty damn impressive though. I wonder if he's another Robert Nilsson?

As for Weal.. I wonder if he's the benefactor of Eberle the same way Espo was with Radulov.

Bryanbryoil
03-06-2010, 01:06 PM
Thanks for the welcome.

Who in the fuck invited you into this hellhole? :drebin:

Bryanbryoil
03-06-2010, 01:08 PM
If you don't think Ryan Shannon and players of his ilk are vanilla that's fine. I disagree.



I agree, which is why I don't understand what the allure is if Cody Eakin can make it as a 4th line player if he doesn't make it in the top 6.

Sometimes an elite field goal kicker is more important than a run-of-the-mill wide receiver.

If you like everything that the Detroit does, great man. I suspect many teams tried to emulate what the Oilers did after their success too.

Ask yourself this though: Which player is more readily available on the free agent market? Guys like Stortini, Janssen, Boll, Neil, Clarkson or guys like Betts, Reasoner, Toby Petersen, Ryan Shannon? Guys like Neil are so unique that clubs were offering 2.5 x 4 for him. Double the amount of a player like Reasoner. Why is that?

I don't draft vanilla players because vanilla players are the easiest players to acquire via free agency for reasonable rates (Reasoner 1.15).

Draft players at the extreme end of their skill set (Helm has unbelievable speed with junkyard dog fight), whether it be skill, toughness or heart. Abney was the toughest player in the draft and the guy can actually skate unlike the Derek Boogaard's of the world.

Lastly, it doesn't matter how much skill a guy has, if he can't/won't be first to the puck/take a hit to make a play/keep position of the puck then leave him for another team.



I take Kane and Little.

I was honestly asking your opinion though.

I love Nino's game. I think his high end is Shanahan and his low end is Morrow. Ross looks like a beauty in the Steve Ott mold.

I've only seen the Finn in the WJC but I didn't like his game at all. I've seen reports that he was battling injury but it was his decision making that I didn't like. A couple times he had 2 or 3 different options on the PP and just tried some behind the leg BS and turned the puck over. This was in 1-1 or 2-1 type games. Didn't see much urgency. His numbers are pretty damn impressive though. I wonder if he's another Robert Nilsson?

As for Weal.. I wonder if he's the benefactor of Eberle the same way Espo was with Radulov.

Our own Morrow would be exceptional, I love him as a player. Heart, heart, heart, and some solid skill, one of the best Captains in the NHL.

GSC
03-06-2010, 02:01 PM
Welcome abroad Traktor. I have been following your war against 'the converted' over at Lowetides off and on for quite a while now. I think you will find your energies better spent here since the religious rarely convert more than once in their lifetime. :danson:

Here, here!

I just can't do Lowetide anymore...

Bryanbryoil
03-06-2010, 02:26 PM
Here, here!

I just can't do Lowetide anymore...

That just doesn't sound right.

Traktor
03-06-2010, 02:36 PM
That just doesn't sound right.

Just throw a brown bag over his head. lol

Bryanbryoil
03-06-2010, 02:42 PM
Just throw a brown bag over his head. lol

:owl:

GSC
03-06-2010, 03:58 PM
Just throw a brown bag over his head. lol

HEY-O! :superghey: