The Tyler Seguin For 1st Overall Thread

[Bryanbryoil]

Frankly I'm tired of some of the guys on the boreds bitching about how Seguin is 2nd fiddle to Hall. I'll be damned to show those fucktards these videos that aren't under Seguin so it takes too much brainpower for them to find.

Here's someone from the prospects bored showing 23 of Seguin's goals, many of which I have on here already but he has the goals playing right away so you don't have to navigate through the videos. http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=24369350&postcount=1

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1:35 showing speed and hands
2:39 drawing a penalty with his speed
2:45 assist off a onetime pass
5:05 magic man
5:59 scoring a goal after cleaning up the garbage
6:24 blocking a shot and clearing the puck

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0:26 coming down the ice and letting a shot go
0:39 going to the net and scoring
1:33 potentially saving a goal

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0:59 nice assist
4:56 scoring a goal that won't be happening in the NHL
5:46 assist
6:37 hammers a shot from the point GW in OT

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1:17 backhand goal
4:29 secondary assist
5:48 EN

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0:03 goal
2:55 touch pass assist


CTEX1aE4ARY
0:50 unsuccessful breakaway

-uFFOa9CL8A
0:05 goal
2:46 nice pass/vision
3:30 back handed pass to point partner assist

Je1xuPoXhXY
2:30 cross ice assist

Seguin always KILLS Eerie
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1:44 sweet assist
2:19 2nd assist
2:47 assist to the point
3:13 sweet assist

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1:07-1:25 Seguin show

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0:28 assist
1:27 clean win on a draw for an assist
1:39 showing his speed again
1:52 assist on GW
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2:03 gets high sticked after a shot which nets an assist

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0:41 PP goal

NEW!

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3:11 goal

Je1xuPoXhXY
2:31 assist

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0:12 goal
0:48 assist point to point
2:50 breakaway goal that had to be reviewed
5:04 point shot off a dman, hat trick goal

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1:38 point shot assist
2:55 points shot 2nd assist

NEW! 3/13/10

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Start Goal
1:02 wins a draw and gets an assist
3:08 wins a draw forward gets a shot on goal and has a 2nd assist

NEW! 3/14/10

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0:30 gets the puck in the slot gets his own rebounds and scores

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0:30 great dekes and a sweet pass
2:22 SICK goal
3:38 a sick unassisted goal

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1:23 rebound goal
3:17 deflection goal

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1:28 goal
1:49 goal
2:08 2 on 1 goal

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Hattrick video

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0:56 goal

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2:01 drops a guy with a hit
3:10 point shot goal


2010 Playoffs 1st Round

Game 1 scores a goal and shows some fire
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[Bryanbryoil]

BTW-WTF? Is it different putting youtube videos on here than at the boreds?

[I am the Liquor]

You fucktard. Leave the Seguin cock suck circus where it belongs.

[Bryanbryoil]

You fucktard. Leave the Seguin cock suck circus where it belongs.

Hey asshole, go blow the curly fry and shut the fuck up.

[I am the Liquor]

Hey asshole, go blow the curly fry and shut the fuck up.

Sorry Im not a raging cock gobbler like you two flamingos. Seriously BBO, youve seen one game and a collection of You Tube videos and you are making up your mind? That is Narnia territory dude. All I know is a lot of people are going to look pretty fucking stupid in a couple of years.

Btw you only copy whats after the = sign you cow fisting Hawaiian cum dumpster.

[Bryanbryoil]

Sorry Im not a raging cock gobbler like you two flamingos. Seriously BBO, youve seen one game and a collection of You Tube videos and you are making up your mind? That is Narnia territory dude. All I know is a lot of people are going to look pretty fucking stupid in a couple of years.

My mind isn't completely made up yet, however the fact of the matter is those that don't think that Seguin has a legit shot of going first need a reality check. Hall needs to up his game big time if he wants to cement his spot as #1. I know that you've been wetting your panties over Hall for some time, but the kid has some major holes in his game offensively. This fucking team can't pass worth a shit as it is, we don't need someone that has to have the puck given to them on a silver platter to do something with it when these fucks can't even make a a simple pass.

[Bryanbryoil]

Sorry Im not a raging cock gobbler like you two flamingos. Seriously BBO, youve seen one game and a collection of You Tube videos and you are making up your mind? That is Narnia territory dude. All I know is a lot of people are going to look pretty fucking stupid in a couple of years.

Btw you only copy whats after the = sign you cow fisting Hawaiian cum dumpster.

Thanks you donkey cock riding stupid fucking alcoholic whiskey dicked motherfucker."425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/FjeSQPct3sM&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/FjeSQPct3sM&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Giant Moo]

The first post is a massive scrawl of HTML fail.

Preview that shit before you post it.

[Bryanbryoil]

The first post is a massive scrawl of HTML fail.

Preview that shit before you post it.

Not sure wtf? I've done that shit before and never had an issue.

[I am the Liquor]

Hey BBO.......this just in........

http://soontobemrsb.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/dumbfuck.jpg

[Raoul Duke]

I certainly wouldn't complain with Seguin but Taylor Hall is the clear #1.

[Supermassive]

A better team will leapfrog us in the Bettman lottery, rendering the debate pointless.

The next CBA should allow the last-place team to dump one contract at the draft. The Horcoff Rule will encourage fair competition between GMs both proficient and dangerously unqualified.

So what happened to using and ?

[Bryanbryoil]

Hey BBO.......this just in........

http://soontobemrsb.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/dumbfuck.jpg

Hey IATL, this just in you like taking it deep from sheep.

I certainly wouldn't complain with Seguin but Taylor Hall is the clear #1.

I don't know about that RD, IMO it depends on what your team is looking for. They both have their +'s and -'s. If Hall were a better passer I'd probably agree.

A better team will leapfrog us in the Bettman lottery, rendering the debate pointless.

The next CBA should allow the last-place team to dump one contract at the draft. The Horcoff Rule will encourage fair competition between GMs both proficient and dangerously unqualified.

So what happened to using and ?

As long as we aren't drafting 3rd or below I'll be happy with either player even though I'm liking Seguin more. As for the youtube stuff I don't know but it's pissing me off. I guess I'll just use the fucking url's.

[Bryanbryoil]

I just linked it to the youtube links since the other way went south. I'll do one of these for Hall as well when I get a chance.

[Raoul Duke]

Passing is easily taught, Hall has a quality that you have or don't. He's a winner. Memorial Cup MVP vs. the guy that can't even crack Team Canada in his draft year. Not a tough call there.

[theoil]

Why am I getting flashbacks reading this thread?

I hope this doesn't mean that RS has been traded in for TS?

Every single scouting service says they are neck and neck with Hall just slightly in the lead. I'll be happy with either one but I do agree with those that say that if it looks so close that it is a coin toss you take the centre.

[mrtoetoe]

I've seen one game of Seguin and two games of Hall, and what boggles my mind about people in the Old World is how fast some will say "when the FUCK DID YOU EVER SEE THEM".

Jesus christ, have people not caught up the fact that you can watch any prospect on the internet in some fashion? I'm not talking about youtube highlights but actual videos of games?

And I don't mean JTS claims he's seen Omark play like 234343 times just to push his anti-Omark agenda.
:punchballs:

[Bryanbryoil]

Supermassive ur my hero! You can delete your now that I was able to copy and paste it on my 1st post. Seriously, thanks a ton man, much appreciated!

[dashingsilverfox]

I've seen one game of Seguin and two games of Hall, and what boggles my mind about people in the Old World is how fast some will say "when the FUCK DID YOU EVER SEE THEM".

Jesus christ, have people not caught up the fact that you can watch any prospect on the internet in some fashion? I'm not talking about youtube highlights but actual videos of games?

And I don't mean JTS claims he's seen Omark play like 234343 times just to push his anti-Omark agenda.
:punchballs:

Too lazy to look before forming an opinion or just going with the conventional wisdom which is what most of the sheeples do.

Watch if the Oilers draft Seguin, 90 percent of those Old World Retards will profess that's what they wanted all along.

[theoil]

Too lazy to look before forming an opinion or just going with the conventional wisdom which is what most of the sheeples do.

Watch if the Oilers draft Seguin, 90 percent of those Old World Retards will profess that's what they wanted all along.

I assume you have applied for a trademark?

[dashingsilverfox]

I assume you have applied for a trademark?

Unfortunately,in this case, I am a dedicated follower of fashion (bonus points for the author of those lyrics), but I do draw the line at sheepledom.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sheeple

[theoil]

Unfortunately,in this case, I am a dedicated follower of fashion (bonus points for the author of those lyrics), but I do draw the line at sheepledom.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sheeple

I am so hopelessly behind the times.

We are planning to get out of here by 10 tomorrow morning and will dawdle on up in your general direction so should be there by 12:30. We have no agenda or anything. Just going for a drive and on from Victoria there is really only the one direction if you want to drive for more than an hour. Probably end up in Courtney or north and head back the next day.

I just felt like going for a drive.

[dashingsilverfox]

I am so hopelessly behind the times.

We are planning to get out of here by 10 tomorrow morning and will dawdle on up in your general direction so should be there by 12:30. We have no agenda or anything. Just going for a drive and on from Victoria there is really only the one direction if you want to drive for more than an hour. Probably end up in Courtney or north and head back the next day.

I just felt like going for a drive.

I'll PM you my cell # in case I'm out and about.

[theoil]

I'll PM you my cell # in case I'm out and about.

Got it.

[Bryanbryoil]

Interesting stat.

Top ES goal scorers in the last 5 OHL seasons.

Seguin 55gp. 33ES draft eligible
Bryan Cameron 52gp. 30ES 20/21 year old season
Steven Stamkos 61gp. 30ES draft eligible
Luca Caputi 66gp. 35ES 19/20 year old season
John Tavares 56gp. 31ES draft eligible
Brett Maclean 61gp. 29ES 19/20 year old season
John Tavares 67gp. 32ES year before draft eligible
Patrick Kane 58gp. 36ES draft eligible

Not saying that this makes Hall a piece of crap or anything, here's some others that haven't been world beaters in ES goal scoring but have been solid NHLers.

Taylor Hall 51gp. 17ES draft eligible
Matt Duchene 57gp. 15ES draft eligible
Bobby Ryan 63gp. 18ES draft eligible

[Bryanbryoil]

Let's look at ES points among the top draftees/projected draftees in the last 5 OHL seasons.

Kane 58gp. 36-30-66
Seguin 55gp. 33-24-57
Stamkos 61gp. 30-21-51
Tavares 56gp. 31-15-46
Ryan 63gp. 18-26-44
Hall 51gp. 17-25-42
Duchene 57gp. 15-25-40

At this point Seguin joins only Kane as guys that have been over 1 ES point per game as a draft eligible player among past top 3 picks and potential top 3 picks in the last 5 years.

[dashingsilverfox]

Let's look at ES points among the top draftees/projected draftees in the last 5 OHL seasons.

Kane 58gp. 36-30-66
Seguin 55gp. 33-24-57
Stamkos 61gp. 30-21-51
Tavares 56gp. 31-15-46
Ryan 63gp. 18-26-44
Hall 51gp. 17-25-42
Duchene 57gp. 15-25-40

At this point Seguin joins only Kane as guys that have been over 1 ES point per game as a draft eligible player among past top 3 picks and potential top 3 picks in the last 5 years.

More and more Seguin is looking like the best choice for the Oilers BBO.

Hall is playing on a stcaked team and Seguin is outperforming him IMO.

And the Oilers need a centre, no matter what Moo says.:blackrod:

[Giant Moo]

And the Oilers need a centre, no matter what Moo says.:blackrod:

:facepalm:

[dashingsilverfox]

:facepalm:

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm:

[Giant Moo]

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm:

:paranoid:

[HFPM]

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/2586/facepalmj.png

[Raoul Duke]

And the Oilers need a centre, no matter what Moo says.:blackrod:

The Oilers need the best player available. You get the 1st overall pick you don't fuck it up by selecting position. 5 years from now who will give a shit what position it is when 95% of this roster is gone anyway.

[Randall Graves]

this reminds me of last year when Tavares was supposed to be the clearcut no.1 guy, no challengers, he was at the wjc's, played well, got hyped as usual

but Matt Duchene was destroying the OHL but just was never in the spotlight

you have to look at how styles translate, Duchenes translates MUCH better to the current NHL

Until Tavares improves his skating Duchene will be the better player

Seguin is every bit as good as Hall, but like Tavares has been hyped for 3+ years so the sheep who say 'zomg hall n its not close' don't know shit.

Hall is a selfish player who doesn't utilize teammates well enough, he rather try tricks than make a simple pass, Seguin is much more well rounded and is future captain material

Let the Bruins deal with Phil Kessel 2, TAKE SEGUIN

[Beaker]

this reminds me of last year when Tavares was supposed to be the clearcut no.1 guy, no challengers, he was at the wjc's, played well, got hyped as usual

but Matt Duchene was destroying the OHL but just was never in the spotlight

you have to look at how styles translate, Duchenes translates MUCH better to the current NHL

Until Tavares improves his skating Duchene will be the better player

Seguin is every bit as good as Hall, but like Tavares has been hyped for 3+ years so the sheep who say 'zomg hall n its not close' don't know shit.

Hall is a selfish player who doesn't utilize teammates well enough, he rather try tricks than make a simple pass, Seguin is much more well rounded and is future captain material

Let the Bruins deal with Phil Kessel 2, TAKE SEGUIN

I bet you Tavares still has a better career than Duchene.

[Randall Graves]

I bet you Tavares still has a better career than Duchene.
that depends on if he improves his skating significantly

Duchene is a poor mans Crosby

[Beaker]

that depends on if he improves his skating significantly

Duchene is a poor mans Crosby

Tavares is smarter and a better sniper. I'd argue that Duchene is playing on the second line of a much better offensive team, where Tavares is playing 1st line on a less deep team. Of course Duchene is doing more right now.

[dashingsilverfox]

this reminds me of last year when Tavares was supposed to be the clearcut no.1 guy, no challengers, he was at the wjc's, played well, got hyped as usual

but Matt Duchene was destroying the OHL but just was never in the spotlight

you have to look at how styles translate, Duchenes translates MUCH better to the current NHL

Until Tavares improves his skating Duchene will be the better player

Seguin is every bit as good as Hall, but like Tavares has been hyped for 3+ years so the sheep who say 'zomg hall n its not close' don't know shit.

Hall is a selfish player who doesn't utilize teammates well enough, he rather try tricks than make a simple pass, Seguin is much more well rounded and is future captain material

Let the Bruins deal with Phil Kessel 2, TAKE SEGUIN

This.

[dashingsilverfox]

The Oilers need the best player available. You get the 1st overall pick you don't fuck it up by selecting position. 5 years from now who will give a shit what position it is when 95% of this roster is gone anyway.

If the players are as close as these two seem to be you pick for need.

I don't think either one will be a mistake.

[Randall Graves]

Tavares is smarter and a better sniper. I'd argue that Duchene is playing on the second line of a much better offensive team, where Tavares is playing 1st line on a less deep team. Of course Duchene is doing more right now.
not sure if Tavares is smarter, Duchene is always in the right place. He's effective from every zone, Tavares is effective in one

Tavares is -18 and has half his pts on the PP, he has to show he has the work ethic now that he'll improve the skating

[Raoul Duke]

this reminds me of last year when Tavares was supposed to be the clearcut no.1 guy, no challengers, he was at the wjc's, played well, got hyped as usual

but Matt Duchene was destroying the OHL but just was never in the spotlight


Reminds me more of when people were debating Turris over Patrick Kane.
That said I wouldn't be overly disappointed with either one. I almost hope the Oilers finish last and lose the lottery so they have the other fall in their lap and we won't have to listen to Oiler fans debate this shit for the next 10 years.

[Bryanbryoil]

Tavares is smarter and a better sniper. I'd argue that Duchene is playing on the second line of a much better offensive team, where Tavares is playing 1st line on a less deep team. Of course Duchene is doing more right now.

Both will be very good players, IMO Tavares will be the better goalscorer and PP guy while Duchene maybe the better ES player.

[Bryanbryoil]

Reminds me more of when people were debating Turris over Patrick Kane.
That said I wouldn't be overly disappointed with either one. I almost hope the Oilers finish last and lose the lottery so they have the other fall in their lap and we won't have to listen to Oiler fans debate this shit for the next 10 years.

Of course in that case one was in the OHL and the other in the BCHL, while in this case they are in the same league and even conference. Both have their +'s and minuses and I'd love to have either player just that at the moment I prefer Seguin and see him as having the higher offensive upside.

[theoil]

Not saying that this makes Hall a piece of crap or anything, here's some others that haven't been world beaters in ES goal scoring but have been solid NHLers.

Taylor Hall 51gp. 17ES draft eligible
Matt Duchene 57gp. 15ES draft eligible
Bobby Ryan 63gp. 18ES draft eligible

A little premature speculation there?

[theoil]

Reminds me more of when people were debating Turris over Patrick Kane.
That said I wouldn't be overly disappointed with either one. I almost hope the Oilers finish last and lose the lottery so they have the other fall in their lap and we won't have to listen to Oiler fans debate this shit for the next 10 years.

Who are we kidding. Oiler fans will debate this shit for 10 years no matter what happens.

[dashingsilverfox]

Who are we kidding. Oiler fans will debate this shit for 10 years no matter what happens.

Should be about ready to make the playoffs by then.:danson:

[Bryanbryoil]

A little premature speculation there?

Yup, my bad. That said I think both Hall and Seguin will be at least decent NHL players.

[Raoul Duke]

Of course in that case one was in the OHL and the other in the BCHL, while in this case they are in the same league and even conference. Both have their +'s and minuses and I'd love to have either player just that at the moment I prefer Seguin and see him as having the higher offensive upside.

True enough man.

I'm not trying to knock your like for Seguin, I think he's a hell of a player. I'm just solidly in the Hall corner. I don't see what he's done to fall so much in people's minds since being the Memorial Cup MVP less than a year ago as a young kid.

Maybe it's not that he's fallen rather that Seguin has risen. I don't know but even 2 months ago Seguin got cut from Team Canada. I think with prospects people are always "What have you done for me today, not even lately"

I have a Hockey News that I bought off ebay leading into the 91 draft with Lindros and there was talk about Falloon going #1, nothing serious because there was no doubt but as with every draft issue there's "One scout thinks Falloon is a more solid pick for the long term leading into the draft". And especially over Neidermayer who was the clear #2 because of his solid couple of months leading into the draft. And sure enough Falloon went 2.

I'm not by any stretch saying Seguin will be a Falloon, he won't be. But just how fickle people can be leading into a draft. I own a Falloon jersey to wit.

I just think in any case you have to take the player that has been projected to be a franchise player from the day they stepped into the CHL. And when he wins a Mem Cup (probably the hardest trophy to win in hockey) and is the MVP of it - and has lived up to every bit of hype he's had in his life. You have to take him.

Sorry for the rant, I'm just venting I guess.

[I am the Liquor]

Should be about ready to make the playoffs by then.:danson:

Not if the same brain dead fucktards are still in charge.

[Bryanbryoil]

True enough man.

I'm not trying to knock your like for Seguin, I think he's a hell of a player. I'm just solidly in the Hall corner. I don't see what he's done to fall so much in people's minds since being the Memorial Cup MVP less than a year ago as a young kid.

Maybe it's not that he's fallen rather that Seguin has risen. I don't know but even 2 months ago Seguin got cut from Team Canada. I think with prospects people are always "What have you done for me today, not even lately"

I have a Hockey News that I bought off ebay leading into the 91 draft with Lindros and there was talk about Falloon going #1, nothing serious because there was no doubt but as with every draft issue there's "One scout thinks Falloon is a more solid pick for the long term leading into the draft". And especially over Neidermayer who was the clear #2 because of his solid couple of months leading into the draft. And sure enough Falloon went 2.

I'm not by any stretch saying Seguin will be a Falloon, he won't be. But just how fickle people can be leading into a draft. I own a Falloon jersey to wit.

I just think in any case you have to take the player that has been projected to be a franchise player from the day they stepped into the CHL. And when he wins a Mem Cup (probably the hardest trophy to win in hockey) and is the MVP of it - and has lived up to every bit of hype he's had in his life. You have to take him.

Sorry for the rant, I'm just venting I guess.

That's it, Hall hasn't done anything to disappoint IMO, just that Seguin like Duchene last year has come on strong and is making a race out of this. It was all about Tavares Vs. Hedman last year then Duchene came into the picture late in the year.

Both will be very good players, the Oil will be lucky to have either one if they get the chance. That said I value franchise centers over franchise wingers unless you have an Ovechkin type of a winger.

[Raoul Duke]

I can dig it. Centers are more difficult to come by and if the Yzerman comparisons become even 75% true you got to take Seguin.

Hall can play it too, but I reckon he's more a Rick Nash upside - who I've always had a great respect for.

Either way I won't be disappointed with either one. It's a great dilemma for the Oilers to have.

[theoil]

Should be about ready to make the playoffs by then.:danson:

It's not like you to be so optimistic.

[Bryanbryoil]

I can dig it. Centers are more difficult to come by and if the Yzerman comparisons become even 75% true you got to take Seguin.

Hall can play it too, but I reckon he's more a Rick Nash upside - who I've always had a great respect for.

Either way I won't be disappointed with either one. It's a great dilemma for the Oilers to have.

Agreed, up until I saw Seguin and have seen his goal totals soar above Hall's I was more than happy to take #4! Either way we get a damn solid young guy to build around.

[Beaker]

Reminds me more of when people were debating Turris over Patrick Kane.
That said I wouldn't be overly disappointed with either one. I almost hope the Oilers finish last and lose the lottery so they have the other fall in their lap and we won't have to listen to Oiler fans debate this shit for the next 10 years.

Everytime I watch Hall I'm always reminded of what Kane looked like in Junior. This is not to say he'll be better than Seguin, cause I'm still not sure either way... but Hall reminds me of Kane.

[Bryanbryoil]

Everytime I watch Hall I'm always reminded of what Kane looked like in Junior. This is not to say he'll be better than Seguin, cause I'm still not sure either way... but Hall reminds me of Kane.

Do you think that he has the playmaking/passing ability of Kane though?

[Raoul Duke]

Hall reminds you of Kane? They're completely different players altogether.

Hall reminds me of a Rick Nash/Dany Heatley hybrid. I have no idea what this Kane thing comes from. He's nothing like Kane.

Again this is why I hate draft time - that hasn't watched the CHL is all of a sudden a great insight on the players going into the draft. I mean, fuck me - I don't watch the NCAA so I can't say what they're about. But I live in Edmonton and go watch junior hockey vs. Edmonton all the time, it's cheap. Why not? I saw Eberle a number of times this year without having to drop 100 bucks an Oilers ticket.

I spent a lot of time watching WHL, CHL games - always ignored. Hell, the "Edmonton Oil Kings WHL" thread lasted one season, nowhere to be seen this year, but everyone is all of a sudden an expert on the WHL players.

I mean you can look back on Edmonton Oil King threads when I was praising that Nino Neiderreiter kid. But no, there's no traffic, and I'm the guy that gets banned from the joint.

I guess it's all about "That's why players don't want to play in Edmonton"
"That's why players don't want to play in Edmonton"
"That's why players don't want to play in Edmonton"
"That's why players don't want to play in Edmonton"
"That's why players don't want to play in Edmonton"
"That's why players don't want to play in Edmonton"

[Bryanbryoil]

Hall reminds you of Kane? They're completely different players altogether.

Hall reminds me of a Rick Nash/Dany Heatley hybrid. I have no idea what this Kane thing comes from. He's nothing like Kane.

Again this is why I hate draft time - that hasn't watched the CHL is all of a sudden a great insight on the players going into the draft. I mean, fuck me - I don't watch the NCAA so I can't say what they're about. But I live in Edmonton and go watch junior hockey vs. Edmonton all the time, it's cheap. Why not? I saw Eberle a number of times this year without having to drop 100 bucks an Oilers ticket.

I spent a lot of time watching WHL, CHL games - always ignored. Hell, the "Edmonton Oil Kings WHL" thread lasted one season, nowhere to be seen this year, but everyone is all of a sudden an expert on the WHL players.

I mean you can look back on Edmonton Oil King threads when I was praising that Nino Neiderreiter kid. But no, there's no traffic, and I'm the guy that gets banned from the joint.

I guess it's all about "That's why players don't want to play in Edmonton"
"That's why players don't want to play in Edmonton"
"That's why players don't want to play in Edmonton"
"That's why players don't want to play in Edmonton"
"That's why players don't want to play in Edmonton"
"That's why players don't want to play in Edmonton"

Agreed, save for their speed I don't see many similarities.

[Raoul Duke]

Taylor Hall will lead the Oilers to the Stanley Cup.

[Bryanbryoil]

Taylor Hall will lead the Oilers to the Stanley Cup.

Seguin will lead them to more than one :D

[Raoul Duke]

Return to glory is all I want.
Schremp would have been first line Oiler if he didn't wear #88.

That's for greatness. Kane will learn soon enough.

[Beaker]

Do you think that he has the playmaking/passing ability of Kane though?

Playmaking/passing probably isn't as good; but i mean we're talking Kane here... Hall is still pretty good in this area, and probably a little underrated.... but where he reminds me of Kane it is the speed of the wing and the ability to control the game from that position. He's able to score goals in a number of ways whether it be through being in the right position, through his moves, hands, and ability to get in close, or through a lethal shot.

[Bryanbryoil]

Playmaking/passing probably isn't as good; but i mean we're talking Kane here... Hall is still pretty good in this area, and probably a little underrated.... but where he reminds me of Kane it is the speed of the wing and the ability to control the game from that position. He's able to score goals in a number of ways whether it be through being in the right position, through his moves, hands, and ability to get in close, or through a lethal shot.

That I can see, however when I think of Kane I think of playmaker first, how easy it is to forget that he scored over 60 goals in his draft season. I would think that Hall's goalscoring translates better to the NHL than Kane's for the reasons that you've mentioned, however IMO Kane's point potential is likely higher.

[mayoradamwest]

Playmaking/passing probably isn't as good; but i mean we're talking Kane here... Hall is still pretty good in this area, and probably a little underrated....

One thing I don't get about the Hall talk is people saying he's not a good playmaker/passer. I've seen him play quite a lot and he typically has his head up and makes nice passes and sets up others quite often. He's not a Marc Savard type by any stretch of the imagination, but Hall seems to be an excellent playmaker IMO.


I also don't really get the Dany Heatley comparisons as Heatley tends to move a little bit less and relies more on getting to the right spot than creating things himself. Hall is too creative for the Heatley comparison.

[theoil]

One thing I don't get about the Hall talk is people saying he's not a good playmaker/passer. I've seen him play quite a lot and he typically has his head up and makes nice passes and sets up others quite often. He's not a Marc Savard type by any stretch of the imagination, but Hall seems to be an excellent playmaker IMO.


I also don't really get the Dany Heatley comparisons as Heatley tends to move a little bit less and relies more on getting to the right spot than creating things himself. Hall is too creative for the Heatley comparison.

All info from those that have seen these two live is greatly appreciated.

[Bryanbryoil]

One thing I don't get about the Hall talk is people saying he's not a good playmaker/passer. I've seen him play quite a lot and he typically has his head up and makes nice passes and sets up others quite often. He's not a Marc Savard type by any stretch of the imagination, but Hall seems to be an excellent playmaker IMO.


I also don't really get the Dany Heatley comparisons as Heatley tends to move a little bit less and relies more on getting to the right spot than creating things himself. Hall is too creative for the Heatley comparison.

Seguin is a natural playmaker and an excellent passer that shows excellent vision. I don't see those dynamics with Hall although he does make some nice passes from time to time.

[Beaker]

One thing I don't get about the Hall talk is people saying he's not a good playmaker/passer. I've seen him play quite a lot and he typically has his head up and makes nice passes and sets up others quite often. He's not a Marc Savard type by any stretch of the imagination, but Hall seems to be an excellent playmaker IMO.


I also don't really get the Dany Heatley comparisons as Heatley tends to move a little bit less and relies more on getting to the right spot than creating things himself. Hall is too creative for the Heatley comparison.

I agree with all of this....

[Bryanbryoil]

3 assists tonight for Seguin and a +2.

Seguin 60gp. 47-58-105 +17
Hall 55gp. 38-62-100 +44

Hall has 3 more games left in the regular season including tomorrow's game.
Seguin has 3 more games left as well.

[GSC]

Either way, I think we get a great player.

Personally, I think Hall is our guy. Put him and Eberle together and watch the magic happen...

[Bryanbryoil]

Either way, I think we get a great player.

Personally, I think Hall is our guy. Put him and Eberle together and watch the magic happen...

I prefer Seguin, but I want us to finish dead last so that we are guaranteed 1 of the dynamic duo.

[Bryanbryoil]

Some food for thought http://bryanbryoil.blogspot.com/2010/03/hall-vs-seguin-part-6-update-time.html

[theoil]

Some food for thought http://bryanbryoil.blogspot.com/2010/03/hall-vs-seguin-part-6-update-time.html

Thanks BBO. i would hope that Stu McGregor has taken out a two or three month lease in the area of Plymouth and the Oilers are paying for his wife to go down and visit him from time to time until the post season is over.

[theoil]

http://ohlprospects.blogspot.com/search/label/Cam%20Fowler

This may be old news to most of you but if you scroll down to the second last post it is a listing of the top ten projected for this year's draft BEFORE the beginning of the current OHL season.

Although it is from a tag on Fowler you will see some pretty telling comments on Hall from the beginning of the season going forward as well. A lot of it can easily be dismissed as a guy who is bored and too good for the league he plays in and we are talking about a kid here.

Seguin is listed #7 for the league.

Anyway I thought I would post the link from a guy that watches a lot of the OHL. Not surprisingly you will find Guy Flaming in the comments sections.

[Bryanbryoil]

Added 4 more videos in the 1st post.

[JohnAlexander]

http://ohlprospects.blogspot.com/search/label/Cam%20Fowler

This may be old news to most of you but if you scroll down to the second last post it is a listing of the top ten projected for this year's draft BEFORE the beginning of the current OHL season.

Although it is from a tag on Fowler you will see some pretty telling comments on Hall from the beginning of the season going forward as well. A lot of it can easily be dismissed as a guy who is bored and too good for the league he plays in and we are talking about a kid here.

Seguin is listed #7 for the league.

Anyway I thought I would post the link from a guy that watches a lot of the OHL. Not surprisingly you will find Guy Flaming in the comments sections.

The bolded is interesting when considering Hall's solid performance at the WJCs, and his comments following his impressive Lowe scouted game akin to "yeah, I really wanted to turn it on with him in the stands".

I've been incredibly impressed by Seguin this year, but for me Hall is still the pick.

Seguin desperately wants to be the guy and continues to make a fantastic case for himself, but...

Hall is the guy. Has been for years. He knows what it takes to wear that mantle and does so comfortably. The Oilers need "the guy".

A lot of the best scouting info is still to come, but for now I think the pick remains just that simple.

[dashingsilverfox]

The bolded is interesting when considering Hall's solid performance at the WJCs, and his comments following his impressive Lowe scouted game akin to "yeah, I really wanted to turn it on with him in the stands".

I've been incredibly impressed by Seguin this year, but for me Hall is still the pick.

Seguin desperately wants to be the guy and continues to make a fantastic case for himself, but...

Hall is the guy. Has been for years. He knows what it takes to wear that mantle and does so comfortably. The Oilers need "the guy".

A lot of the best scouting info is still to come, but for now I think the pick remains just that simple.

The problem JA is the Oilers are woefully weak at centre and, if it's even close in other areas, I think they need to pick Seguin.

Great teams are built down the middle and the Oilers have a potential above average second line centre and a breaking down plug being paid a ransom along with some flotsam and jetsam.

They desperately need a #1 centre.

[Giant Moo]

DSF, how does Seguin project in terms of height and weight?

[dashingsilverfox]

DSF, how does Seguin project in terms of height and weight?

6'1" 200 but a strong skater unlike Samwise.

He may not be ideal but the Oilers need him badly.

[theoil]

The bolded is interesting when considering Hall's solid performance at the WJCs, and his comments following his impressive Lowe scouted game akin to "yeah, I really wanted to turn it on with him in the stands".

I've been incredibly impressed by Seguin this year, but for me Hall is still the pick.

Seguin desperately wants to be the guy and continues to make a fantastic case for himself, but...

Hall is the guy. Has been for years. He knows what it takes to wear that mantle and does so comfortably. The Oilers need "the guy".

A lot of the best scouting info is still to come, but for now I think the pick remains just that simple.

The only thing I feel very strongly about between the two having not seen enough of either is that Stu McGregor should be leasing an apartment in the area by the month and watching both every time he has a chance going forward and going backwards several months. I know 2nd rounders are important and blah, blah, blah. Nothing is more important than getting this one right.

[Bryanbryoil]

The only thing I feel very strongly about between the two having not seen enough of either is that Stu McGregor should be leasing an apartment in the area by the month and watching both every time he has a chance going forward and going backwards several months. I know 2nd rounders are important and blah, blah, blah. Nothing is more important than getting this one right.

Yup, if we have the luxury of getting to choose between the 2, we have to hit it big. Knowing this club they'll pick up a ton of vets and try to contend next year :facepalm:

[Bryanbryoil]

Added a new video on the 1st page.

[jumptheshark]

It will be tough(unless they lose the fucking lotto). Some NYI fans are already regretting taking Tarvares over Duschesne--if the oilers take Hall--and Seguin gets off to the better start--the monday night quarterbacks will have a field day

[Bryanbryoil]

It will be tough(unless they lose the fucking lotto). Some NYI fans are already regretting taking Tarvares over Duschesne--if the oilers take Hall--and Seguin gets off to the better start--the monday night quarterbacks will have a field day

The more I'm watching of Hall the less worried I am of having this happen. IMO it could end up being a Kane Vs. Toews type of a thing. Seguin could become an elite perimeter guy like Kane but probably a notch below, while Hall could turn out to be like Toews in that his offense may not be quite as good but he brings more to the table in his overall game. Both great players but different in the way they attain results.

[mrtoetoe]

It will be tough(unless they lose the fucking lotto). Some NYI fans are already regretting taking Tarvares over Duschesne--if the oilers take Hall--and Seguin gets off to the better start--the monday night quarterbacks will have a field day

What the fuck do you know? You were saying for a month that the Oilers would pick 8th to 10th and everyone told you to shut up because that was so far fetched.

[Giant Moo]

What the fuck do you know? You were saying for a month that the Oilers would pick 8th to 10th and everyone told you to shut up because that was so far fetched.

You mean he "crunched the numbers".

[mrtoetoe]

You mean he "crunched the numbers".

Wait a minute...crunched the numbers? He's with Lowetide!

http://www.gosai.com/krishna-talk/graphics/burning.jpg

[Giant Moo]

Wait a minute...crunched the numbers? He's with Lowetide!

Lowetide doesn't crunch any numbers himself. He just does what the Advanced Math Bloggers tell him to do.

[Bryanbryoil]

BTW-When is anyone going to give me some fucking positive reps for spending a shart load of time digging up these videos and screening them for highlights of these kids? Ungrateful bastards!

[I am the Liquor]

BTW-When is anyone going to give me some fucking positive reps for spending a shart load of time digging up these videos and screening them for highlights of these kids? Ungrateful bastards!

You are lucky we still talk to you after you invited 2".

[Bryanbryoil]

You are lucky we still talk to you after you invited 2".

You talking to me is lucky? :punchballs:

[I am the Liquor]

You talking to me is lucky? :punchballs:

Not just me. Anybody. Pay attention cowpatty. :dummy:

[Bryanbryoil]

Not just me. Anybody. Pay attention cowpatty. :dummy:

Well anybody is > than you so that might mean something to me monkey fluffer.

[Bryanbryoil]

Hall Vs. Seguin final regular season stats breakdown and where they stack up to the last 5 top OHL draftees http://bryanbryoil.blogspot.com/2010/03/hall-vs-seguin-part-7-complete-regular.html

[dashingsilverfox]

Hall Vs. Seguin final regular season stats breakdown and where they stack up to the last 5 top OHL draftees http://bryanbryoil.blogspot.com/2010/03/hall-vs-seguin-part-7-complete-regular.html

Damn it BBO, I only get 200 clicks a month and I just ran out.

Post the damn thing here too.:stickman:

[Bryanbryoil]

Damn it BBO, I only get 200 clicks a month and I just ran out.

Post the damn thing here too.:stickman:

WTF are you talking about 200 clicks?

Anyhow here it is:


At the end of the 2009-10 OHL Regular Season

Hall 57gp. 40-66-106 +46 56pim. 2GWG
ESG 22
ES 1st assists 24
ES 2nd assists 10
ES Points 56

PPG 14
PP 1st assists 18
PP 2nd assists 14
PP Points 46

SHG 4
SH 2nd assists 1
SH Points 5

1st stars 11
2nd stars 4
3rd stars 4
Total 3 star selections 19
EN 3

Seguin 63gp. 48-58-106 +17 54pim. 7GWG
ESG 35
ES 1st assists 20
ES 2nd assists 8
ES Points 63

PPG 13
PP 1st assists 19
PP 2nd assists 11
PP Points 43

1st stars 15
2nd stars 2
3rd stars 1
Total 3 star selections 18
EN 1

Multi Point Games

Hall (27)
10-2 points games
7-3 point games
6-4 point games Blowout games 5-2, 5-2, 8-4, 5-1, 7-3
4-5 point games Blowout games 11-3, 7-1, 6-3

Seguin (27)
9-2 point games
9-3 point games
7-4 point games Blowout games 7-2, 6-1, 5-1, 6-2
2-5 point games Blowout games 9-2, 6-3

Multi Goal Games

Hall (11)
9-2 goal games
2-3 goal games

Seguin (11)
6-2 goal games
5-3 goal games

54 of Hall's 100 points came in 12 games 8 of which were blowouts or at least not very close games.

Hall had at least 1 point in 48 of his 57 games.

Seguin had at least 1 point in 46 of his 63 games.

Let's look at ES points among the top draftees/projected draftees in the last 5 OHL seasons.

Kane 58gp. 36-30-66
Seguin 63gp. 35-28-63
Hall 57gp. 22-34-56
Stamkos 61gp. 30-21-51
Tavares 56gp. 31-15-46
Ryan 63gp. 18-26-44
Duchene 57gp. 15-25-40

Now Top ES Goal scorers of all ages in the last 5 OHL seasons, draft eligible in blue

Patrick Kane 58gp. 36ES draft eligible
Bryan Cameron 62gp. 35ES 20/21 year old season
Seguin 63gp. 35ES draft eligible
Luca Caputi 66gp. 35ES 19/20 year old season
John Tavares 67gp. 32ES year before draft eligible
John Tavares 56gp. 31ES draft eligible
Bryan Cameron 52gp. 30ES 20/21 year old season
Steven Stamkos 61gp. 30ES draft eligible
Brett Maclean 61gp. 29ES 19/20 year old season

Hall and Seguin are 2 of only 3 players in that time to have averaged that close to 1ppg at ES, the other being Patrick kane who was over 1 ES point/game. Seguin also had more ES goals than anyone not named Patrick Kane in terms of players in their draft years. The bottom line is that both of these players are the goods. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

[dashingsilverfox]

Thanks Bryan.

I actually had one click left.:toocool:

[dashingsilverfox]

Those numbers tell me Seguin is the man.

I also noted Kane excelled despite having to drag Sam Gagner around.:danson:

[Bryanbryoil]

Those numbers tell me Seguin is the man.

I also noted Kane excelled despite having to drag Sam Gagner around.:danson:

I looked into Sam's ES #'s awhile back and they weren't very pretty IIRC.

[theoil]

[QUOTE=dashingsilverfox;649855]Those numbers tell me Seguin is the man.

So if that is the case and we have the first pick what did you think of Matheson's idea today of trying to flip picks with Boston and taking a shot at their own first rounder? If it could be done I think it costs us our second rounder as well but it seems like there might be potential there. You know Boston wants the winger.


I also noted Kane excelled despite having to drag Sam Gagner around.:danson:
Bitterness is not good for the constitution you know. Something about bile build-up.

[dashingsilverfox]

[QUOTE]

So if that is the case and we have the first pick what did you think of Matheson's idea today of trying to flip picks with Boston and taking a shot at their own first rounder? If it could be done I think it costs us our second rounder as well but it seems like there might be potential there. You know Boston wants the winger.



Bitterness is not good for the constitution you know. Something about bile build-up.

I would entertain Boston's suggestion in a heartbeat and it actually addresses a team need.

As I've oft stated, great teams are built around centres and the Oilers do not have a number one centre in the org.

It's causing me bile build up.

[theoil]

[QUOTE=theoil;649884]

I would entertain Boston's suggestion in a heartbeat and it actually addresses a team need.

As I've oft stated, great teams are built around centres and the Oilers do not have a number one centre in the org.

It's causing me bile build up.

Yeah, I thought it was one of Jim's better ideas of late and it shows potential even if it had to be twigged here and there. With the NYI beating Toronto this afternoon the chances of Boston picking second are looking reasonable.

As for the bile buid up . . .

I have only recently discovered that a willingness to lower standards and abandon the concept of principle is an important step in learning to live with the decisions of my fellow travellers.

Not sure why it took me so long to catch on. :big_body_presence:

[dashingsilverfox]

[QUOTE=dashingsilverfox;649896]

Yeah, I thought it was one of Jim's better ideas of late and it shows potential even if it had to be twigged here and there. With the NYI beating Toronto this afternoon the chances of Boston picking second are looking reasonable.

As for the bile buid up . . .

I have only recently discovered that a willingness to lower standards and abandon the concept of principle is an important step in learning to live with the decisions of my fellow travellers.

Not sure why it took me so long to catch on. :big_body_presence:

Communist.

[theoil]

[QUOTE=theoil;649919]

Communist.

And you see - that never even caused a flutter of my blood pressure. I'm telling you I think I'm on to something here. Lowered expectations is the key. :prickle:

[dashingsilverfox]

[QUOTE=dashingsilverfox;649931]

And you see - that never even caused a flutter of my blood pressure. I'm telling you I think I'm on to something here. Lowered expectations is the key. :prickle:

Being an Oiler fan will eventually do that to you.

I used to like you better when you didn't resemble a Leaf's fan

[theoil]

Being an Oiler fan will eventually do that to you.

I used to like you better when you didn't resemble a Leaf's fan

Well now you are just trying to be mean.

No more free advice for you.

[Giant Moo]

Jesus Christ guys, fix your quote tags.

You realize that after one more iteration you end up looking like you're quoting yourself? That shit is hard to follow.

[HFPM]

It's almost like it's a running gag.

[Bryanbryoil]

This is fucked, I think after the whole youtube thing got fucked the other threads got deleted and now I'm noticing that the videos aren't matching the descriptions.

[Bryanbryoil]

Fixed the descriptions and also added 7 videos. The 2nd new one has 2 sick goals from Seguin. This kid has undeniable skill and hands.

[Bryanbryoil]

Seguin with 1-1-2 and a +1 in a 5-2 Plymouth win. Their series is now tied at 1 game apiece. Here's some video of him form their 3-2 series opening loss. It shows him showing some emotion and a real hate to lose as well as scoring a beauty goal.

KTmIXBMB6G0

[Bryanbryoil]

Seguin with 1-1-2 in an 8-1 Plumouth ass thumping of SSM, Plymouth goes up 2 games to 1 in their series.

[Replacement]

Jesus Christ guys, fix your quote tags.

You realize that after one more iteration you end up looking like you're quoting yourself? That shit is hard to follow.

heh 7 posts in a row with the quote tags messed up. Where it stops nobody knows.

[oilers_guy_eddie]

I have a strange, unfounded hunch that Seguin will ultimately be the real "winner" of the two. I am almost thinking the best thing that could happen would be if the Oilers lose the lottery and "get stuck" with Seguin.

[Bryanbryoil]

I have a strange, unfounded hunch that Seguin will ultimately be the real "winner" of the two. I am almost thinking the best thing that could happen would be if the Oilers lose the lottery and "get stuck" with Seguin.

I still think that he has the higher upside, however Hall is the safer pick. I just want one of them on the club next year, if we fuck that up by winning out the season and we take Fowler, I'll fucking snap.

[dashingsilverfox]

I have a strange, unfounded hunch that Seguin will ultimately be the real "winner" of the two. I am almost thinking the best thing that could happen would be if the Oilers lose the lottery and "get stuck" with Seguin.

I have the same feeling and in reality the Oilers need a natural centre in the worst way.

[I am the Liquor]

You guys are way off base here. Hall is going to be the better of the two. By a fair bit. It would be criminal if we were to miss this opportunity.

[Bryanbryoil]

You guys are way off base here. Hall is going to be the better of the two. By a fair bit. It would be criminal if we were to miss this opportunity.

Out of curiosity have you seen a fair amount of Seguin and still come to this conclusion or is this based on viewings of Hall?

[theoil]

I still think that he has the higher upside, however Hall is the safer pick. I just want one of them on the club next year, if we fuck that up by winning out the season and we take Fowler, I'll fucking snap.

I would pay good money to watch that. It would be spectacle for the ages I'll bet. :stickman:

[Bryanbryoil]

I would pay good money to watch that. It would be spectacle for the ages I'll bet. :stickman:

Just pay for the damages :danson:

[I am the Liquor]

Out of curiosity have you seen a fair amount of Seguin and still come to this conclusion or is this based on viewings of Hall?

I havent seen a lot of Seguin but he just comes up short. Hall has accomplished so much more, Memorial cup mvp, good showing at the wjc, been a force in the league for three years as opposed to one.

He looks like the more dominant player. He is proving it once again in the playoffs. He is a gamer. He makes shit happen. Seguin seems to wilt when the going gets tough. Given the choice, there is none imo.

[Bryanbryoil]

Seguin with 2(1EN)-2-4 and a +1 in a 5-3 Plymouth win. Plymouth goes up 3-1 in their 1st round series.

[dashingsilverfox]

Seguin with 2(1EN)-2-4 and a +1 in a 5-3 Plymouth win. Plymouth goes up 3-1 in their 1st round series.

Just watched the highlights.

Seguin is the man.

[Bryanbryoil]

Just watched the highlights.

Seguin is the man.

From tonight's game or the ones that I posted on here?

[dashingsilverfox]

From tonight's game or the ones that I posted on here?

Last night's game.

[Bryanbryoil]

Last night's game.

Where did you get to see them? I checked TSN's site and nada.

[dashingsilverfox]

Where did you get to see them? I checked TSN's site and nada.

I watched them on TSN right after the Canucks/Ducks game.

Man can that guy fly!

[theoil]

I watched them on TSN right after the Canucks/Ducks game.

Man can that guy fly!

I keep reading that he is as fast as Hall. Is that true in your opinion?

[dashingsilverfox]

I keep reading that he is as fast as Hall. Is that true in your opinion?

In very limited viewing, yes.

Last night he overtook a defenseman from 20 feet behind at the red line and beat him to the net.

Make me sit up and notice.

[theoil]

In very limited viewing, yes.

Last night he overtook a defenseman from 20 feet behind at the red line and beat him to the net.

Make me sit up and notice.

That's impressive then. That is a skill that translates from junior. What's your take on Stu McGregor? Do you trust him to make the right choice?

[dashingsilverfox]

That's impressive then. That is a skill that translates from junior. What's your take on Stu McGregor? Do you trust him to make the right choice?

I really don't think there is any way to fuck this up since both are so close but, as you've said, if it's that close, the Oilers need a centre more than a winger.

[Bryanbryoil]

I watched them on TSN right after the Canucks/Ducks game.

Man can that guy fly!

Yup he definitely has an extra gear or two!

I keep reading that he is as fast as Hall. Is that true in your opinion?

I think Hall maybe a little faster and uses his speed better to get to loose pucks and such, but Seguin is fast and shifty, a dangerous combo for defenders.

I really don't think there is any way to fuck this up since both are so close but, as you've said, if it's that close, the Oilers need a centre more than a winger.

I agree, as long as we get one of these kids I am happy.

[theoil]

I really don't think there is any way to fuck this up since both are so close but, as you've said, if it's that close, the Oilers need a centre more than a winger.

I just think that cedntres have more ability to impact games than wingers. There is a guy in Washington trying to change that perception but in general you build down the middle.

[theoil]

I think Hall maybe a little faster and uses his speed better to get to loose pucks and such, but Seguin is fast and shifty, a dangerous combo for defenders.

Fast and shifty is very good. About three weeks to the lottery.

[dashingsilverfox]

I just think that cedntres have more ability to impact games than wingers. There is a guy in Washington trying to change that perception but in general you build down the middle.

Agree completely.

Now if the OIlers could just find a veteran, right handed, third line centre who can kill penalties and not cost $5.5M for the next 5 years, they would be in great shape.:stickman:

[theoil]

Agree completely.

Now if the OIlers could just find a veteran, right handed, third line centre who can kill penalties and not cost $5.5M for the next 5 years, they would be in great shape.:stickman:

And if I could find Santa Clause I could make a fortune running tours up to visit him.

I don't see Horcoff's salary as that big a deal for the next 2 years because I think we need at least 2 years to shed the rest of the blight and get young so the cap hit should be immaterial until then.

It will be interesting to see what they do with him after that.

[GSC]

I'm officially on the Seguin bandwagon...seems like the more complete player and dominated on a bad team

I bet he makes the players around him better. Not saying that Hall isn't a beauty, but he's on a stacked team and has benefited from having good players around him (esp. at the WJC). Then again, there is a good argument that he and Eberle have that chemistry.

Either way, the Oilers should get a franchise player.

[dashingsilverfox]

And if I could find Santa Clause I could make a fortune running tours up to visit him.

I don't see Horcoff's salary as that big a deal for the next 2 years because I think we need at least 2 years to shed the rest of the blight and get young so the cap hit should be immaterial until then.

It will be interesting to see what they do with him after that.

Yeah, not too much is a big deal for the next three years IMO.

Getting Khabibulin off the books is going to be critical.

[HFPM]

For the longest time, I didn't want Seguin because the school of thought was draft the guy because he's a Center, not because he's the BPA. Even having watched him play for a total of probably about 5 minutes, he's the guy to get. A force in all 3 zones piling up goals and described as an elite playmaker?

Yes please.

[theoil]

I'm officially on the Seguin bandwagon...seems like the more complete player and dominated on a bad team

I bet he makes the players around him better. Not saying that Hall isn't a beauty, but he's on a stacked team and has benefited from having good players around him (esp. at the WJC). Then again, there is a good argument that he and Eberle have that chemistry.

Either way, the Oilers should get a franchise player.

I think the thing that makes it difficult is the huge difference in talent level between the teams they play on.

On the one hand Hall has all this talent around him so you expect to see more points because that is what talent does. On the other hand it means that he has to share offensive opportunities.

On the one hand Seguin is pretty much on his own from all reports but on the other hand he plays way more minutes than Hall and gets all offensive opportunities.

It makes statistical analysis virtually impossible imo which leaves you with eyes in the stands watching.

I wonder if Barry gets OHL games in Cabos? Maybe he has an opinion.

[Mr Bugg]

It makes statistical analysis virtually impossible imo which leaves you with eyes in the stands watching.

They're starting to figure that out on Boreds- at least one person finally noticed he's playing 30+ minutes and every minute of every powerplay, but few PKs in order to conserve his energy. Sound like another OHLer we drafted a few years ago?

Now, I'm not saying he's Schremp 2.0, but as I've argued all year they're basically playing in the best possible situations to put up points- however, to borrow some hated terminology, Hall is playing the tougher minutes on a team many expect to be right back at the Mem Cup. That he's out-doing Seguin in PPG despite having to kill penalties these playoffs (although much less by my eye than last year since they need to run-and-gun to make up for shoddy goaltending thus far) shows you how good he really is.

[GSC]

I think the thing that makes it difficult is the huge difference in talent level between the teams they play on.

On the one hand Hall has all this talent around him so you expect to see more points because that is what talent does. On the other hand it means that he has to share offensive opportunities.

On the one hand Seguin is pretty much on his own from all reports but on the other hand he plays way more minutes than Hall and gets all offensive opportunities.

It makes statistical analysis virtually impossible imo which leaves you with eyes in the stands watching.

I wonder if Barry gets OHL games in Cabos? Maybe he has an opinion.

Thank God he's gone and Stu MacGregor is in charge.

[dashingsilverfox]

They're starting to figure that out on Boreds- at least one person finally noticed he's playing 30+ minutes and every minute of every powerplay, but few PKs in order to conserve his energy. Sound like another OHLer we drafted a few years ago?

Now, I'm not saying he's Schremp 2.0, but as I've argued all year they're basically playing in the best possible situations to put up points- however, to borrow some hated terminology, Hall is playing the tougher minutes on a team many expect to be right back at the Mem Cup. That he's out-doing Seguin in PPG despite having to kill penalties these playoffs (although much less by my eye than last year since they need to run-and-gun to make up for shoddy goaltending thus far) shows you how good he really is.

All that's true Mr. Bugg, but you also have to account for Seguin's paucity of good line mates.

[theoil]

They're starting to figure that out on Boreds- at least one person finally noticed he's playing 30+ minutes and every minute of every powerplay, but few PKs in order to conserve his energy. Sound like another OHLer we drafted a few years ago?

Now, I'm not saying he's Schremp 2.0, but as I've argued all year they're basically playing in the best possible situations to put up points- however, to borrow some hated terminology, Hall is playing the tougher minutes on a team many expect to be right back at the Mem Cup. That he's out-doing Seguin in PPG despite having to kill penalties these playoffs (although much less by my eye than last year since they need to run-and-gun to make up for shoddy goaltending thus far) shows you how good he really is.

Yup. It is why I was happy the Oilers were sitting there with MacTavish a week or so ago. I have no trouble with using every statistical slice of the pie that makes sense. But when the level of teammates is so disparate I think that has fairly serious limitations.

At that point you need to spring for the plane ticket.

[theoil]

All that's true Mr. Bugg, but you also have to account for Seguin's paucity of good line mates.

Which is, to my mind, why the scouts are so divided on who is better. It's almost like comparing guys from Junior to Junior A. All the impinging data is different and you have to extrapolate.

At that point I think you have to look for individual skills - such as fast and deceptive speed - and try to project transferability to the next level.

That would be different than a lot of scouting which is more comparable to how real estate agents decide how much a property is worth by looking to see what comparable properties in the same neighbourhood went for.

This decision is going to define McGregor's career imo.

[Mr Bugg]

At that point I think you have to look for individual skills - such as fast and deceptive speed - and try to project transferability to the next level.


The problem is that their skillsets are so very close to identical, although Hall is a better skater by almost every metric. The issue is playstyle and I think that's ultimately what's going to define their careers.

I've seen people at Boreds crack on Hall for playing 'like a robot', for scoring goals 'from the same places', for not being dynamic enough. Yet, it was Hall who made Team Canada, it was Hall who found almost immediate chemistry with two unfamiliar linemates. It's because he plays such a controlled, team-oriented game that allows for that- he's the perfect linemate for anybody.

Seguin is far more chaotic and sporadic. The Boreds scouts love this for some reason and I can't understand why. It may look more exciting but it ultimately doesn't work as space gets tighter and d-men get smarter. It's hard to fault him entirely because he's had to play that way to succeed in Plymouth, but when he tried to adjust at the TC camp it was an abject failure.

Can Seguin be a star? Sure. He just needs to have some sense of structure ingrained into him. I don't know if it'll happen in Plymouth for the remainder of his junior career, so that means the adjustment will have to take place in the show. That's an absolute PITA for any talent not named Crosby- see Stamkos, Steve and Tavares, John. So who succeeds as a rookie? Look at Ryan O'Reilly and Matt Duchene- both play a pro-style north-south game and spend little time fucking around with the puck. Duchene certainly has the talent to do more with it but he doesn't because he knows what works and what doesn't. That's Hall's game and why I've been so firmly in his camp all year.

[Bryanbryoil]

They're starting to figure that out on Boreds- at least one person finally noticed he's playing 30+ minutes and every minute of every powerplay, but few PKs in order to conserve his energy. Sound like another OHLer we drafted a few years ago?

Now, I'm not saying he's Schremp 2.0, but as I've argued all year they're basically playing in the best possible situations to put up points- however, to borrow some hated terminology, Hall is playing the tougher minutes on a team many expect to be right back at the Mem Cup. That he's out-doing Seguin in PPG despite having to kill penalties these playoffs (although much less by my eye than last year since they need to run-and-gun to make up for shoddy goaltending thus far) shows you how good he really is.

Bugg, I know that you are a pro scout and I respect you as a person. That said, I've seen a few Plymouth games and in those games he rarely if EVER played a full 2 minutes on the PP. One game was at the start of the year and the other towards the end. Yes he may play more minutes, but if he sucked he wouldn't put up points, he IS Plymouth's go-to guy. His teammates lack of finish is the only reason why Hall has more assists. He would be outscoring Hall soundly if he had guys like Niemisz and Henrique on the PP with him and at ES in Henrique's case, no doubt that he'd have another 10-20 assists. If you shut down Hall you have to contend with the 2 players mentioned above and Ellis, and Shugg, and Fowler, and Kassian, and, and, and. How in the hell can you say that Hall is playing tougher minutes? If Seguin is playing so much isn't he bound to match up with the oppositions top lines and checkers? The first game that I watched he went head to head with Hall and schooled his ass. I heard that the last time they met it was the opposite, but it's not as if Hall is highly superior to the kid.

In terms of pure skill, Seguin is second to no one in this draft. Yes he isn't as gritty as Hall, but grit can be learned to a point. Not to mention if he's playing so much is he supposed to be busting his ass along the boards for 30 minutes a night and create most of his teams offense? Do we want a Horcoff clone? I am not even saying that we should draft Seguin over Hall, I'm still deliberating on it to be honest, but enough trying to say that he pads his stats because of his ice time. I see no Perry or Bolland on his line and I see no Gagner or S. Kostitsyin on his line. He is doing most of this on his own ala Steven Stamkos in his draft year. And yeah I never watched Stamkos, but he was on a mediocre team and I bet that his coach leaned of Stamkos a bit too.

Seguin maybe conserving energy on some shifts because of the amount he plays at ES, but in the NHL where most forwards average considerably less ice time he will be able to go for broke every shift.

[Bryanbryoil]

The problem is that their skillsets are so very close to identical, although Hall is a better skater by almost every metric. The issue is playstyle and I think that's ultimately what's going to define their careers.

I've seen people at Boreds crack on Hall for playing 'like a robot', for scoring goals 'from the same places', for not being dynamic enough. Yet, it was Hall who made Team Canada, it was Hall who found almost immediate chemistry with two unfamiliar linemates. It's because he plays such a controlled, team-oriented game that allows for that- he's the perfect linemate for anybody.

Seguin is far more chaotic and sporadic. The Boreds scouts love this for some reason and I can't understand why. It may look more exciting but it ultimately doesn't work as space gets tighter and d-men get smarter. It's hard to fault him entirely because he's had to play that way to succeed in Plymouth, but when he tried to adjust at the TC camp it was an abject failure.

Can Seguin be a star? Sure. He just needs to have some sense of structure ingrained into him. I don't know if it'll happen in Plymouth for the remainder of his junior career, so that means the adjustment will have to take place in the show. That's an absolute PITA for any talent not named Crosby- see Stamkos, Steve and Tavares, John. So who succeeds as a rookie? Look at Ryan O'Reilly and Matt Duchene- both play a pro-style north-south game and spend little time fucking around with the puck. Duchene certainly has the talent to do more with it but he doesn't because he knows what works and what doesn't. That's Hall's game and why I've been so firmly in his camp all year.

Seguin is a better passer and has better vision, on the boreds you said that Seguin isn't better at anything, I disagree. And yes I've seen a number of Hall tap ins from the side of the net, that shows hockey IQ and the willingness to pay the price, that said they aren't high skill goals. As for the WJC's I didn't see much chemistry from Hall there, he was trying to do too much by himself (being saddled with Kadri sure didn't help). Luckily I haven't seen that as much in his games with Windsor, or this would be an easy decision. And for making/not making the WJC's there are a lot of good players that never made it, including Duchene last year. And if you thing that Seguin would've been worse than Kadri, Niemisz, or Henrique I don't know what to say.

[Bryanbryoil]

All that's true Mr. Bugg, but you also have to account for Seguin's paucity of good line mates.

That is not taken into consideration by many of the guys that diss Seguin. Many of Seguin's goals are where he carries in and creates for himself, not easy goals to score by any stretch. If his linemates had better finish he'd have a lot more points.

[theoil]

The problem is that their skillsets are so very close to identical, although Hall is a better skater by almost every metric. The issue is playstyle and I think that's ultimately what's going to define their careers.

I've seen people at Boreds crack on Hall for playing 'like a robot', for scoring goals 'from the same places', for not being dynamic enough. Yet, it was Hall who made Team Canada, it was Hall who found almost immediate chemistry with two unfamiliar linemates. It's because he plays such a controlled, team-oriented game that allows for that- he's the perfect linemate for anybody.

Seguin is far more chaotic and sporadic. The Boreds scouts love this for some reason and I can't understand why. It may look more exciting but it ultimately doesn't work as space gets tighter and d-men get smarter. It's hard to fault him entirely because he's had to play that way to succeed in Plymouth, but when he tried to adjust at the TC camp it was an abject failure.

Can Seguin be a star? Sure. He just needs to have some sense of structure ingrained into him. I don't know if it'll happen in Plymouth for the remainder of his junior career, so that means the adjustment will have to take place in the show. That's an absolute PITA for any talent not named Crosby- see Stamkos, Steve and Tavares, John. So who succeeds as a rookie? Look at Ryan O'Reilly and Matt Duchene- both play a pro-style north-south game and spend little time fucking around with the puck. Duchene certainly has the talent to do more with it but he doesn't because he knows what works and what doesn't. That's Hall's game and why I've been so firmly in his camp all year.

Thanks, Bugg. That really helped me understand some of the questions that I have had in my mind.

PITA?

[Mr Bugg]

PITA?

Pain in the ass.

That is not taken into consideration by many of the guys that diss Seguin. Many of Seguin's goals are where he carries in and creates for himself, not easy goals to score by any stretch. If his linemates had better finish he'd have a lot more points.

It's far easier to score one-on-one in junior than it is in the NHL. I'd rather take the kid who has been in a winning, complete program his entire junior career who understands how to play a complete game rather than one that has to start the process from scratch. It's a difference- potentially a huge one for a team like the Oilers who are looking for an impact from Day 1.

That said, I've seen a few Plymouth games and in those games he rarely if EVER played a full 2 minutes on the PP.

It's a playoffs thing, not a regular season one, although it did happen from time to time during the regular season.


He would be outscoring Hall soundly if he had guys like Niemisz and Henrique on the PP with him and at ES in Henrique's case, no doubt that he'd have another 10-20 assists. If you shut down Hall you have to contend with the 2 players mentioned above and Ellis, and Shugg, and Fowler, and Kassian

At this point this debate has already gone full-circle- I contend this is not the case and both are in the ideal situation to get over 100 points in junior, and you think Seguin would do better.


How in the hell can you say that Hall is playing tougher minutes? If Seguin is playing so much isn't he bound to match up with the oppositions top lines and checkers?

Sure, but his job is to go through them with abandon, not spend equal amounts of time backchecking and establishing a complete breakout. Seguin made a couple fantastic plays at ES but then Hall is sort of like that quiet stay-at-home defender or positionally sound goaltender- when he's doing his job right he's not sticking out.


In terms of pure skill, Seguin is second to no one in this draft.

I think Tarasenko has him and everyone else beat here, to be honest. He's got the softest pair of mitts you'll ever see on a prospect- he's Tavares-like in the way he handles the puck.

I am not even saying that we should draft Seguin over Hall, I'm still deliberating on it to be honest, but enough trying to say that he pads his stats because of his ice time. I see no Perry or Bolland on his line and I see no Gagner or S. Kostitsyin on his line. He is doing most of this on his own ala Steven Stamkos in his draft year.

Sure, but Hall doesn't have another top-five OHL forward on his team either. As much as people love to hype the idea he's playing on the 2004-05 London Knights, the reality is that Hall was the only Spit to place in the top fifteen in scoring during the regular season! In the playoffs it's the exact same- next closest scorer is 17th.


And for making/not making the WJC's there are a lot of good players that never made it, including Duchene last year. And if you thing that Seguin would've been worse than Kadri, Niemisz, or Henrique I don't know what to say.


But doesn't that illustrate to you the fallacy of your argument that Hall is playing with OHL superstars? Henrique and Nemisz were 19 and barely stood out when playing with and against the best. Hall, meanwhile, was an integral part of the team.

[I am the Liquor]

What I dont understand is how Seguin ends up with 2ppg and yet is barely a plus player. But he is touted as defensively superior to Hall despite serving no time on the pk and barely breaking even at ES.

[Bryanbryoil]

Pain in the ass.



It's far easier to score one-on-one in junior than it is in the NHL. I'd rather take the kid who has been in a winning, complete program his entire junior career who understands how to play a complete game rather than one that has to start the process from scratch. It's a difference- potentially a huge one for a team like the Oilers who are looking for an impact from Day 1.



It's a playoffs thing, not a regular season one, although it did happen from time to time during the regular season.



At this point this debate has already gone full-circle- I contend this is not the case and both are in the ideal situation to get over 100 points in junior, and you think Seguin would do better.



Sure, but his job is to go through them with abandon, not spend equal amounts of time backchecking and establishing a complete breakout. Seguin made a couple fantastic plays at ES but then Hall is sort of like that quiet stay-at-home defender or positionally sound goaltender- when he's doing his job right he's not sticking out.



I think Tarasenko has him and everyone else beat here, to be honest. He's got the softest pair of mitts you'll ever see on a prospect- he's Tavares-like in the way he handles the puck.



Sure, but Hall doesn't have another top-five OHL forward on his team either. As much as people love to hype the idea he's playing on the 2004-05 London Knights, the reality is that Hall was the only Spit to place in the top fifteen in scoring during the regular season! In the playoffs it's the exact same- next closest scorer is 17th.



But doesn't that illustrate to you the fallacy of your argument that Hall is playing with OHL superstars? Henrique and Nemisz were 19 and barely stood out when playing with and against the best. Hall, meanwhile, was an integral part of the team.

I could care less about if a prospect comes from a winning program, we are looking at the highest potential and I also could care less who has the bigger impact next season. It's about long term and we won't be challengers for anything significant for at least a couple of years anyway.

As for Henrique and Niemisz their WJC accomplishments mean nothing because at the OHL level they are better than what Seguin has to work with.

What I dont understand is how Seguin ends up with 2ppg and yet is barely a plus player. But he is touted as defensively superior to Hall despite serving no time on the pk and barely breaking even at ES.

Not nearly as strong of a team? That certainly plays a role.

[I am the Liquor]

Not nearly as strong of a team? That certainly plays a role.

Is this really BBO? Sounds more like PDO.:drebin:


What's his on ice Sv%?

[Bryanbryoil]

Is this really BBO? Sounds more like PDO.:drebin:

Good players can still have a respectable +/- on a bad team. That said most guys with insanely high +/-'s are on good to great teams.

[Bryanbryoil]

Is this really BBO? Sounds more like PDO.:drebin:


What's his on ice Sv%?

0.875fuckyoutoo

[dashingsilverfox]

What I dont understand is how Seguin ends up with 2ppg and yet is barely a plus player. But he is touted as defensively superior to Hall despite serving no time on the pk and barely breaking even at ES.

Qual Team buddy, Qual Team.

[theoil]

OHL Coaches Poll - Best Players

The OHL recently did a poll of their coaches as to the best player in the Western Conference at specific skills. Pretty cool thing to look at, seeing as how both Hall and Seguin play in that conference. Here are some of the results in which they were featured:

Smartest Player
1) Tyler Seguin (Plymouth)
2) Ryan Ellis (Windsor)
3) Jeff Skinner (Kitchener)

Best Playmaker
1) Tyler Seguin (Plymouth)
2) Jordan Skellett (Saginaw)
3) Joey Hishon (Owen Sound)

Best Skater
1) Taylor Hall (Windsor)
2) John Moore (Kitchener)
3) Nazem Kadri (London)

Most Dangerous in the Goal Area
1) Taylor Hall (Windsor)
2) Tyler Seguin (Plymouth), Jeremy Morin (Kitchener)
3) Tyler Beck (Guelph)

Best Stickhandler
1) Nazem Kadri (London)
2) Tyler Seguin (Plymouth)
3) Michael Latta (Guelph)

More fuel for the discussion.

[Bryanbryoil]

OHL Coaches Poll - Best Players

The OHL recently did a poll of their coaches as to the best player in the Western Conference at specific skills. Pretty cool thing to look at, seeing as how both Hall and Seguin play in that conference. Here are some of the results in which they were featured:

Smartest Player
1) Tyler Seguin (Plymouth)
2) Ryan Ellis (Windsor)
3) Jeff Skinner (Kitchener)

Best Playmaker
1) Tyler Seguin (Plymouth)
2) Jordan Skellett (Saginaw)
3) Joey Hishon (Owen Sound)

Best Skater
1) Taylor Hall (Windsor)
2) John Moore (Kitchener)
3) Nazem Kadri (London)

Most Dangerous in the Goal Area
1) Taylor Hall (Windsor)
2) Tyler Seguin (Plymouth), Jeremy Morin (Kitchener)
3) Tyler Beck (Guelph)

Best Stickhandler
1) Nazem Kadri (London)
2) Tyler Seguin (Plymouth)
3) Michael Latta (Guelph)

More fuel for the discussion.

I saw that on the boreds, but didn't want to mention it here because some people think that Hall is = or superior in every possible category :bugg: :superghey:

[dashingsilverfox]

I saw that on the boreds, but didn't want to mention it here because some people think that Hall is = or superior in every possible category :bugg: :superghey:

I tell ya...Seguin is the man.

[Bryanbryoil]

I tell ya...Seguin is the man.

He had a lone assist in Plymouth's 6-2 win tying Hall with 10 points but in 1 more game. Next up? Hall Vs. Seguin for all the marbles! :ay:

[dashingsilverfox]

He had a lone assist in Plymouth's 6-2 win tying Hall with 10 points but in 1 more game. Next up? Hall Vs. Seguin for all the marbles! :ay:

I'd like to watch that.

How do you get the games BBO?

[theoil]

I saw that on the boreds, but didn't want to mention it here because some people think that Hall is = or superior in every possible category :bugg: :superghey:

I thought the whole point of this board is that you can say whatever you want as long as you believe it to be true, are willing to make a rational argument and think it is worth making the point?

At least that was how I understood it.

[dashingsilverfox]

I thought the whole point of this board is that you can say whatever you want as long as you believe it to be true, are willing to make a rational argument and think it is worth making the point?

At least that was how I understood it.

That's about right.

No need to pussyfoot here.

[theoil]

That's about right.

No need to pussyfoot here.

I think we are all big boys and girls here and if we aren't then we are probably in the wrong place.

[Bryanbryoil]

I'd like to watch that.

How do you get the games BBO?

Gotta shell out dough. I'm hoping that they'll have a price for the whole series instead of individual games. And I guess I was a little ahead of myself declaring their match up, Kingston has to win 1 more game (with 2 left) to make it official. I guess you can buy an individual playoff round pass for $19.95, that's what I'll do if they meet. Here's the link http://livestream.ontariohockeyleague.com/ click on packages.

I thought the whole point of this board is that you can say whatever you want as long as you believe it to be true, are willing to make a rational argument and think it is worth making the point?

At least that was how I understood it.

I'm just busting Bugg's balls a bit here :drebin: Those polls seem about right to me in respect to these two players. That said, Seguin may not be as fast, but he is elusive as hell in a Hemsky type of a way skating wise. Just like Hemsky isn't as fast as Cogs, but he's more prone to dance around guys with relative ease. Again, it's about pure skill that isn't as gritty and willing to get down and dirty Vs. a guy that's willing to pay the price in every area of the ice. I personally don't like the Toews comp for Seguin, IMO he's more like Kane than Toews. Hall would be more like Toews IMO.

[theoil]

I'm just busting Bugg's balls a bit here :drebin: Those polls seem about right to me in respect to these two players.

Oh, I know what you are doing. :danson:

I just wanted to put it on the record. I really appreciate Buggs comments and the work that he does. But I am not nearly as interested in people's conclusions as I am in the reasoning process behind the conclusions.

I think that is what will make this a great board.

[I am the Liquor]

Oh, I know what you are doing. :danson:

I just wanted to put it on the record. I really appreciate Buggs comments and the work that he does. But I am not nearly as interested in people's conclusions as I am in the reasoning process behind the conclusions.

I think that is what will make this a great board.

You sound like a math teacher.:barf:

[theoil]

You sound like a math teacher.:barf:

Don't turn nasty now, IATL.

And I probably didn't say it that well.

I don't post on blogs because it seems like differences in opinion are not well tolerated. And, of course, the old world has pretty much lost its way where nobody ever asks why you think what you think. It is just 'you're an idiot if you think that' or 'prove it'.

Kid stuff.

But here it seems like everybody can look after themselves and there is respect for the posters even if the opinions differ from time to time.

I like that.

[Bryanbryoil]

Oh, I know what you are doing. :danson:

I just wanted to put it on the record. I really appreciate Buggs comments and the work that he does. But I am not nearly as interested in people's conclusions as I am in the reasoning process behind the conclusions.

I think that is what will make this a great board.

These were my observations after first seeing Seguin.

Top End Speed-Hall
Acceleration-Tie
More Elusive Player-Seguin
Shot velocity-Hall
Shot accuracy-Seguin
Passing-Seguin
Hockey IQ-Seguin
Vision-Seguin
Defensive Awareness-Hall
Physical play-Hall
Better stickhandler in tight quarters-Seguin
Better stickhandler at top speed-Seguin
More likely to pay the price physically-Hall
More likely to disappear when the game is on the line-Neither
More likely to be an NHL captain one day-Hall

[I am the Liquor]

These were my observations after first seeing Seguin.

Top End Speed-Hall
Acceleration-Tie
More Elusive Player-Seguin
Shot velocity-Hall
Shot accuracy-Seguin
Passing-Seguin
Hockey IQ-Seguin
Vision-Seguin
Defensive Awareness-Hall
Physical play-Hall
Better stickhandler in tight quarters-Seguin
Better stickhandler at top speed-Seguin
More likely to pay the price physically-Hall
More likely to disappear when the game is on the line-Seguin
More likely to be an NHL captain one day-Hall

Fixed.

[Bryanbryoil]

Fixed.

You have a right to your opinion, however when games have been on "the line" this postseason he's figured into 2 EN scoring plays to salt away the game. Hardly a disappearing act IMO.

[I am the Liquor]

You have a right to your opinion, however when games have been on "the line" this postseason he's figured into 2 EN scoring plays to salt away the game. Hardly a disappearing act IMO.

Well, he disappeared after the first period of the prospects game and he disappeared at the TC training camp. Hall always shows up. Ergo, Seguin is the most likely to disappear when the going gets a little rough.

[Bryanbryoil]

Well, he disappeared after the first period of the prospects game and he disappeared at the TC training camp. Hall always shows up. Ergo, Seguin is the most likely to disappear when the going gets a little rough.

So an allstar game and a training camp is what we're basing a players ability to keep a high level of play in crunch time? O.k., I want to see them go head to head then this and other issues should be settled.

[I am the Liquor]

So an allstar game and a training camp is what we're basing a players ability to keep a high level of play in crunch time? O.k., I want to see them go head to head then this and other issues should be settled.

Well, the prospects game is hardly an "all star" game. When was the last time you saw fights in an all star game? This is make or break time for kids looking to show their stuff against their competition for million dollar pay days. Same goes for the TC training camp. Beats the hell out of a couple of empty net goals, that's for sure.

[Bryanbryoil]

Well, the prospects game is hardly an "all star" game. When was the last time you saw fights in an all star game? This is make or break time for kids looking to show their stuff against their competition for million dollar pay days. Same goes for the TC training camp. Beats the hell out of a couple of empty net goals, that's for sure.

Like I said, let's see how he does against Windsor if we're lucky enough to have Kingston win their series.

[Giant Moo]

Like I said, let's see how he does against Windsor if we're lucky enough to have Kingston win their series.

I'm flying to Kingston in June. Any chance they can hold off on the playoff games until I get there? :drebin:

[dashingsilverfox]

From Matheson's Hockey World today:

"Seguin a better fit

The Oilers won't tip their hand on whether they want centre Tyler Seguin or left-winger Taylor Hall in the June NHL entry draft, with both likely playing one another in Round 2 of the Ontario Hockey League playoffs.

But it makes far more sense that they take Plymouth Whalers pivot Seguin. Then they could have prospect Jordan Eberle on right wing and the Swede Magnus Paajarvi-Svensson on the left."

Matheson often knows more than he lets on.

[I am the Liquor]

From Matheson's Hockey World today:

"Seguin a better fit

The Oilers won't tip their hand on whether they want centre Tyler Seguin or left-winger Taylor Hall in the June NHL entry draft, with both likely playing one another in Round 2 of the Ontario Hockey League playoffs.

But it makes far more sense that they take Plymouth Whalers pivot Seguin. Then they could have prospect Jordan Eberle on right wing and the Swede Magnus Paajarvi-Svensson on the left."

Matheson often knows more than he lets on.

Hall can play center you know.

[dashingsilverfox]

Hall can play center you know.

So can Seguin.

The question is which one would be a better centre and that's what the Oilers desperately need so Horcoff can be relegated to the third line until his contract expires.

[theoil]

Hall can play center you know.

So can I but I don't think the Oilers want a first overall pick that is a project or a question mark.

If they think the talent level is a coin toss then I wouldn't be at all surprised if they go for the natural centre.

BPA is always the rule in the first round but if that is a sawoff . . .

[I am the Liquor]

So can I but I don't think the Oilers want a first overall pick that is a project or a question mark.

If they think the talent level is a coin toss then I wouldn't be at all surprised if they go for the natural centre.

BPA is always the rule in the first round but if that is a sawoff . . .

But Hall is a natural center.

[Bryanbryoil]

But Hall is a natural center.

The sad thing is that he hasn't played there enough as a junior to make everyone think that he'll be as good of a center as he would a winger at the next level. If I were management I would be considering him a winger with the possibility of being a center. Seguin is all center.

And when you are looking at a center you are looking at a guy with incredible vision and playmaking ability, IMO that fits Seguin more than Hall. I really wish that we could get the 2nd pick so that we could get both, that would be a fucking dream come true. I respect both players skills immensely.

[theoil]

But Hall is a natural center.

Have to disagree. Natural centres do not get moved to the wing in junior.

Ever.

[Bryanbryoil]

Have to disagree. Natural centres do not get moved to the wing in junior.

Ever.

Gotta disagree here. Pouliot was moved to wing when Crosby was there, Bolland to wing when he played with Schremp, so there are examples. That said I don't see anyone of that caliber on Windsor except Hall. So he was moved to wing in favor of Henrique. Every coach is different but that's a weak call if he's better as a center and it could ultimately cost Hall the 1st overall spot.

[I am the Liquor]

Have to disagree. Natural centres do not get moved to the wing in junior.

Ever.

Have you listened to the interview with Bob Boughner?

Here is the link to the Bob Boughner interview with Jason Gregor.

http://www.theteam1260.com/sound_bytes/view/session/march_8th/780/

The interview starts at the 33 minute mark in hour 1.

He was moved so they could take advantage of his speed to the outside. Ive really had enough of this cant play center crap. There is really nothing but speculation to back up this up.

[Bryanbryoil]

Have you listened to the interview with Bob Boughner?



He was moved so they could take advantage of his speed to the outside. Ive really had enough of this cant play center crap. There is really nothing but speculation to back up this up.

That said he hasn't played the position much in the last 3 years so are we to believe that he can play the position as well as Seguin? That is where the concern comes in.

[I am the Liquor]

That said he hasn't played the position much in the last 3 years so are we to believe that he can play the position as well as Seguin? That is where the concern comes in.

He has played it all his life. He was moved during the year last season I believe. I have seen him play entire games at center this year. The guy can play both. Did you listen to the interview? Please do.

[Bryanbryoil]

He has played it all his life. He was moved during the year last season I believe. I have seen him play entire games at center this year. The guy can play both. Did you listen to the interview? Please do.

I haven't listened to it, and I saw him play center in the first game of the year against Seguin, he was schooled in the dot, and although named 1st star IMO Seguin outplayed him. His passes were off and he wasn't as good as he was later on in the year when he was on the wing. I don't doubt that he could play center as he has speed to burn, however IMO Seguin's hockey IQ, vision, and playmaking trumps Hall's which in all likelihood makes him a better center down the road at least IMO.

[I am the Liquor]

I haven't listened to it, and I saw him play center in the first game of the year against Seguin, he was schooled in the dot, and although named 1st star IMO Seguin outplayed him. His passes were off and he wasn't as good as he was later on in the year when he was on the wing. I don't doubt that he could play center as he has speed to burn, however IMO Seguin's hockey IQ, vision, and playmaking trumps Hall's which in all likelihood makes him a better center down the road at least IMO.

Do yourself a favour. Listen to it. 33 minute mark of hour 1 is where it begins. Its about ten or fifteen minutes long. Then maybe we can put all this cant play center garbage behind us and debate the players on their skills and merits.

[theoil]

Gotta disagree here. Pouliot was moved to wing when Crosby was there, Bolland to wing when he played with Schremp, so there are examples. That said I don't see anyone of that caliber on Windsor except Hall. So he was moved to wing in favor of Henrique. Every coach is different but that's a weak call if he's better as a center and it could ultimately cost Hall the 1st overall spot.

You're right. My bad. The best player on a team does not get moved to wing to make a spot for a lesser player to play that position.

Does that sound closer?

[dashingsilverfox]

Looks like someone is a little crusty this morning.:toocool:

[theoil]

He was moved so they could take advantage of his speed to the outside. Ive really had enough of this cant play center crap. There is really nothing but speculation to back up this up.

Disagree again. Actions speak louder than words. He was moved to the wing and one has to assume it was because his coach thought he was more effective there.

I tend to ignore anything anybody says when the words contradict their actions.

[theoil]

Looks like someone is a little crusty this morning.:toocool:

I hear the Oilers are looking for 'crusty'.

[I am the Liquor]

Disagree again. Actions speak louder than words. He was moved to the wing and one has to assume it was because his coach thought he was more effective there.

I tend to ignore anything anybody says when the words contradict their actions.

What postition did Messier play when he broke into the league?

[theoil]

What postition did Messier play when he broke into the league?

He played wing. And he didn't play first line centre while he was in Edmonton. I have no doubt Hall could be an effective 2nd line centre for this team if that is what you mean.

Messier would have been a great winger and it seems to me that when he played internationally etc. he usually did get moved to wing.

[I am the Liquor]

He played wing. And he didn't play first line centre while he was in Edmonton. I have no doubt Hall could be an effective 2nd line centre for this team if that is what you mean.

Messier would have been a great winger and it seems to me that when he played internationally etc. he usually did get moved to wing.

Mark Messier is arguably the second greatest center or third if you want to put Mario ahead of him to ever play the game. Yet he started his nhl career on the wing. Not only did he start there but played almost five seasons as a winger. Does this mean that he couldnt play center?

That is the logic that is being bandied about by the Hall cant play center crowd. It boggles the mind. Why wouldnt you listen to the interview? Wouldnt you want to be exposed to all the information at hand? To dismiss it outright as propaganda is pretty cynical and presumptuous.

[theoil]

Mark Messier is arguably the second greatest center or third if you want to put Mario ahead of him to ever play the game. Yet he started his nhl career on the wing. Not only did he start there but played almost five seasons as a winger. Does this mean that he couldnt play center?

That is the logic that is being bandied about by the Hall cant play center crowd. It boggles the mind. Why wouldnt you listen to the interview? Wouldnt you want to be exposed to all the information at hand? To dismiss it outright as propaganda is pretty cynical and presumptuous.

I remember Messier. Protypical winger who translated his game to centre over a period of time. Never playe 1st line centre for many, many years though did he.

If you want me to I'll even admit that Messier could have been an all-star on defence. He was that kind of player.

Anybody can play centre. The question is where do your skills translate best at the highest level of competition. Hall entered junior as a centre and is leaving junior as a winger.

As to not listening to the interview. I suppose it is from my years in politics. I used to tell the guy that I worked for that if he didn't stop listening to what people were saying and start watching what they were doing he would never have the slightest idea what was going on around him.

Just a rule of thumb, of course.

[Bryanbryoil]

You're right. My bad. The best player on a team does not get moved to wing to make a spot for a lesser player to play that position.

Does that sound closer?

This I agree with, and if the coach feels that he's better at wing and his production was close to Seguin's what would his production have been as a center? According the to the coach's assessment, better, worse, equal?

Disagree again. Actions speak louder than words. He was moved to the wing and one has to assume it was because his coach thought he was more effective there.

I tend to ignore anything anybody says when the words contradict their actions.

I agree with this as well.

Mark Messier is arguably the second greatest center or third if you want to put Mario ahead of him to ever play the game. Yet he started his nhl career on the wing. Not only did he start there but played almost five seasons as a winger. Does this mean that he couldnt play center?

That is the logic that is being bandied about by the Hall cant play center crowd. It boggles the mind. Why wouldnt you listen to the interview? Wouldnt you want to be exposed to all the information at hand? To dismiss it outright as propaganda is pretty cynical and presumptuous.

Let's look a little more at modern times, which recent (say last 10 years) player that extensively played wing in juniors that later became a center at the NHL level? I'm not trying to stir the pot here, I'm just asking. For the record I think that he could play center at the next level, but I like his game better as a winger and Seguin's better as a center. Hall's battle level along the boards and always challenging defenders fits better on the wing, Seguin's lesser battle level, better vision, passing, and hockey IQ IMO makes him a better fit down the middle. Just my opinion.

[dashingsilverfox]

I remember Messier. Protypical winger who translated his game to centre over a period of time. Never playe 1st line centre for many, many years though did he.

If you want me to I'll even admit that Messier could have been an all-star on defence. He was that kind of player.

Anybody can play centre. The question is where do your skills translate best at the highest level of competition. Hall entered junior as a centre and is leaving junior as a winger.

As to not listening to the interview. I suppose it is from my years in politics. I used to tell the guy that I worked for that if he didn't stop listening to what people were saying and start watching what they were doing he would never have the slightest idea what was going on around him.

Just a rule of thumb, of course.

Time to apply that bon mot to Tambellini.

[I am the Liquor]

Can you give me one good reason why Hall cant play center other than "the coach moved him to wing" "actions speak louder than words" rhetoric?

Honestly you guys are just flapping your lips here. You have provided nothing to back up your argument except for assumptions and guesswork. You wont even listen to the coach of the player for the last three years when he is asked this question directly. You would rather cling to your unfounded conclusions, that are founded on "he was moved to wing from center, ergo he isnt a good center" Solid reasoning there. I expect to find this kind of bumfoolery on the boreds but not here.

theoil said himself that he wants people to back up their postions. Is it too much to ask that from yourself? Really.

[theoil]

Time to apply that bon mot to Tambellini.

Always. With everybody. Everybody always seems to forget that deception is the most common use of speech.

[Bryanbryoil]

Can you give me one good reason why Hall cant play center other than "the coach moved him to wing" "actions speak louder than words" rhetoric?

Honestly you guys are just flapping your lips here. You have provided nothing to back up your argument except for assumptions and guesswork. You wont even listen to the coach of the player for the last three years when he is asked this question directly. You would rather cling to your unfounded conclusions, that are founded on "he was moved to wing from center, ergo he isnt a good center" Solid reasoning there. I expect to find this kind of bumfoolery on the boreds but not here.

theoil said himself that he wants people to back up their postions. Is it too much to ask that from yourself? Really.

Not sure if this is directed at me as well, IMO he could be a good/very good center, but he'd be a better winger and Seguin has better intangibles as a center.

[theoil]

Can you give me one good reason why Hall cant play center other than "the coach moved him to wing" "actions speak louder than words" rhetoric?

Honestly you guys are just flapping your lips here. You have provided nothing to back up your argument except for assumptions and guesswork. You wont even listen to the coach of the player for the last three years when he is asked this question directly. You would rather cling to your unfounded conclusions, that are founded on "he was moved to wing from center, ergo he isnt a good center" Solid reasoning there. I expect to find this kind of bumfoolery on the boreds but not here.

theoil said himself that he wants people to back up their postions. Is it too much to ask that from yourself? Really.

Well, I thought I had backed it up. Of course Hall can play centre. I'm willing to bet he can play defence. But his coach, in spite of what he says, looked at his team and decided that his team was better if Hall played wing. If that was not his reasoning process he should have been fired. And if Hall strongly believed in his ability or desire to play centre as the best player on the team he would have asked for a trade.

These actions or lack of actions are the proof. What you are offering is speech - a notoriously unreliable form of proof.

No?

[Bryanbryoil]

Well, I thought I had backed it up. Of course Hall can play centre. I'm willing to bet he can play defence. But his coach, in spite of what he says, looked at his team and decided that his team was better if Hall played wing. If that was not his reasoning process he should have been fired. And if Hall strongly believed in his ability or desire to play centre as the best player on the team he would have asked for a trade.

These actions or lack of actions are the proof. What you are offering is speech - a notoriously unreliable form of proof.

No?

That would've gotten him labeled as a selfish asshole though don't you think?

[theoil]

That would've gotten him labeled as a selfish asshole though don't you think?

That's what agents are for. Practically the job description. And if you were Hall's agent don't you think you would have been on the phone to him the moment you heard he had been moved to the wing? I would have.

[I am the Liquor]

Well, I thought I had backed it up. Of course Hall can play centre. I'm willing to bet he can play defence. But his coach, in spite of what he says, looked at his team and decided that his team was better if Hall played wing. If that was not his reasoning process he should have been fired. And if Hall strongly believed in his ability or desire to play centre as the best player on the team he would have asked for a trade.

These actions or lack of actions are the proof. What you are offering is speech - a notoriously unreliable form of proof.

No?

I will take the words of the coach into consideration before pure assumptions made by someone on the internet. It is really a non issue, but seeing as it is really the cornerstone for anyone that argues Seguin over Hall (I mean, what else do they really have?) it is perpetuated and clung to at all costs.

It is amusing to me that you put so little stock in words but yet are willing to entertain second hand info on a luncheon with Tambellini.

[Bryanbryoil]

I will take the words of the coach into consideration before pure assumptions made by someone on the internet. It is really a non issue, but seeing as it is really the cornerstone for anyone that argues Seguin over Hall (I mean, what else do they really have?) it is perpetuated and clung to at all costs.

It is amusing to me that you put so little stock in words but yet are willing to entertain second hand info on a luncheon with Tambellini.

That is complete horseshit IATL, I have pointed out the areas that Seguin is better in and why I feel that he'd be a better center than Hall. If it was the opposite, I take Hall as a winger over Seguin.

[I am the Liquor]

That is complete horseshit IATL, I have pointed out the areas that Seguin is better in and why I feel that he'd be a better center than Hall. If it was the opposite, I take Hall as a winger over Seguin.

Are these based on anything other than your opinion?

[theoil]

I will take the words of the coach into consideration before pure assumptions made by someone on the internet. It is really a non issue, but seeing as it is really the cornerstone for anyone that argues Seguin over Hall (I mean, what else do they really have?) it is perpetuated and clung to at all costs.

It is amusing to me that you put so little stock in words but yet are willing to entertain second hand info on a luncheon with Tambellini.

I never read anything Tambo said at a luncheon so I'm not sure what you mean by that but let's be clear. If you say you are going to do something or that you meant to do something that is far less evidence than what you do.

The coach put him on the wing. So I really don't understand what that has to do with assumptions or anything else.

His coach put him on the wing.

[Bryanbryoil]

Are these based on anything other than your opinion?

Yeah my opinion and that of OHL coaches as well as at least some scouts.

[I am the Liquor]

I never read anything Tambo said at a luncheon so I'm not sure what you mean by that but let's be clear. If you say you are going to do something or that you meant to do something that is far less evidence than what you do.

The coach put him on the wing. So I really don't understand what that has to do with assumptions or anything else.

His coach put him on the wing.

Sather and Watson put Messier on the wing. Do a poll on the boreds and ask them what position Messier played. Your logic is flawed and your willingness to dismiss something outright without any investigation is very telling. Are you saying Boughner lied in his interview? That is the inference.

[theoil]

Sather and Watson put Messier on the wing. Do a poll on the boreds and ask them what position Messier played. Your logic is flawed and your willingness to dismiss something outright without any investigation is very telling. Are you saying Boughner lied in his interview? That is the inference.

I really don't get this IATL. I listened to the fucking interview. He was asked straight up if Hall would be better on the wing or as a centre. It is the only question where he hummed and hawed before answering. Gee, I wonder if that means anything.

Then he went on to say that his best player could play either position. Almost as though he doesn't want to annoy his best player going into the playoffs. Can't understand why he would do that either.

Then he says centre is hard to play so maybe Hall should play wing his first year in the NHL and try centre later - you know - like have another coach take responsibility for that.

But, again, the tell is this. When Bob Boughner asked Bob Boughner where he thought Hall should play Bob answered wing.

I really don't understand how you could arrive at any conclusion other than that Bob thinks he plays better on wing.

And just to be clear I don't think this means we should take Seguin because I don't know. No idea really because all I know about that is what I read and what I read says good things about both of them.

But I do know - not think, but know - that Bob Boughner prefers to have Taylor Hall play wing on his team.

It just really isn't even a question.

[I am the Liquor]

I really don't get this IATL. I listened to the fucking interview. He was asked straight up if Hall would be better on the wing or as a centre. It is the only question where he hummed and hawed before answering. Gee, I wonder if that means anything.

Then he went on to say that his best player could play either position. Almost as though he doesn't want to annoy his best player going into the playoffs. Can't understand why he would do that either.

Then he says centre is hard to play so maybe Hall should play wing his first year in the NHL and try centre later - you know - like have another coach take responsibility for that.

But, again, the tell is this. When Bob Boughner asked Bob Boughner where he thought Hall should play Bob answered wing.

I really don't understand how you could arrive at any conclusion other than that Bob thinks he plays better on wing.

And just to be clear I don't think this means we should take Seguin because I don't know. No idea really because all I know about that is what I read and what I read says good things about both of them.

But I do know - not think, but know - that Bob Boughner prefers to have Taylor Hall play wing on his team.

It just really isn't even a question.



That is a pretty slanted view of the interview but is understandable considering where the starting points are. Ftr he said center in the nhl is a tough assignment for any first year player. He also said that Hall would dominate at the position in the league after a year or two.

Boughner plays Hall at center, not just wing. Ive seen him play whole games at center as little as a month ago. Really, you are drawing conclusions based on a single observation, and you are reticent to address anything that may waver from that. I think its a non issue. Even if the cant play center bs were true, which it clearly isnt, we should be taking the bpa, which is Hall.

[theoil]

That is a pretty slanted view of the interview but is understandable considering where the starting points are. Ftr he said center in the nhl is a tough assignment for any first year player. He also said that Hall would dominate at the position in the league after a year or two.

Boughner plays Hall at center, not just wing. Ive seen him play whole games at center as little as a month ago. Really, you are drawing conclusions based on a single observation, and you are reticent to address anything that may waver from that. I think its a non issue. Even if the cant play center bs were true, which it clearly isnt, we should be taking the bpa, which is Hall.

And I have agreed with that all along IATL. We should take the BPA. I never said anything different.

What I said is that if the team decides that they are equal then I prefer the natural centre.

And for the record I haven't seen Seguin at all so I am not drawing any conclusions except for the one that you seem too stubborn to recognize which is that regardless of what Bob says in public when he was having this conversation with himself in his office or on the can or in the shower or wherever he makes his important decisions he put him on the wing.

And so did the guy coaching him in the WJC.

Play the little fucker on defence for all I care. Put the shitter in goal and give him a big stick.

Boughner says he is a winger. And he said it with his actions. That really isn't all that complicated.

[mayoradamwest]

That is a pretty slanted view of the interview but is understandable considering where the starting points are. Ftr he said center in the nhl is a tough assignment for any first year player. He also said that Hall would dominate at the position in the league after a year or two.

Boughner plays Hall at center, not just wing. Ive seen him play whole games at center as little as a month ago. Really, you are drawing conclusions based on a single observation, and you are reticent to address anything that may waver from that. I think its a non issue. Even if the cant play center bs were true, which it clearly isnt, we should be taking the bpa, which is Hall.

Hall has played some center but typically he plays on the wing. There's nothing preventing him from playing down the middle though (just as there's nothing preventing Seguin from going to the wing.) It wouldn't have made a lot of sense to play Hall at C all season though, Adam Henrique is one of the better jr. players at faceoffs. It's no shame for Hall to be behind him as a center and if I had to guess, Seguin would also be behind Henrique when it comes to pure positional play (i.e. faceoffs/defence.)

Hall is pretty versatile, though I think the fact he's playing for Windsor is now coming across as a negative. There are a couple ways of looking at it - yes, Seguin had to more himself (which is a plus for Seguin,) but Hall also wasn't the only offensive option on his team meaning that the opportunities were a bit more spread out. The PP works around Ellis a lot of the time and Fowler, Shugg, Watson, Henrique, Nemisz, others ended up with opportunities and ending PP's before Hall had a chance to strike.


Hall's WJC is now getting held against him (Seguin didn't make it) and the trend of picking apart the top guy seems to be picking up. Either way though, for your guys sake you'll end up with a good player. If I manage to get some tickets for this series I'll post an update.

[I am the Liquor]

Hall has played some center but typically he plays on the wing. There's nothing preventing him from playing down the middle though (just as there's nothing preventing Seguin from going to the wing.) It wouldn't have made a lot of sense to play Hall at C all season though, Adam Henrique is one of the better jr. players at faceoffs. It's no shame for Hall to be behind him as a center and if I had to guess, Seguin would also be behind Henrique when it comes to pure positional play (i.e. faceoffs/defence.)

Hall is pretty versatile, though I think the fact he's playing for Windsor is now coming across as a negative. There are a couple ways of looking at it - yes, Seguin had to more himself (which is a plus for Seguin,) but Hall also wasn't the only offensive option on his team meaning that the opportunities were a bit more spread out. The PP works around Ellis a lot of the time and Fowler, Shugg, Watson, Henrique, Nemisz, others ended up with opportunities and ending PP's before Hall had a chance to strike.


Hall's WJC is now getting held against him (Seguin didn't make it) and the trend of picking apart the top guy seems to be picking up. Either way though, for your guys sake you'll end up with a good player. If I manage to get some tickets for this series I'll post an update.

Thanks. Much appreciated. Look forward to the updates if you get the opportunity.

[theoil]

If I manage to get some tickets for this series I'll post an update.

That would be much appreciated.

[Beaker]

That's what agents are for. Practically the job description. And if you were Hall's agent don't you think you would have been on the phone to him the moment you heard he had been moved to the wing? I would have.

Not if you looked at Windsor last year and said, "This team has a hell of a chance to win the memorial cup." A long playoff run culminating in a championship will do a hell of a lot for my clients draft stock.

[theoil]

Not if you looked at Windsor last year and said, "This team has a hell of a chance to win the memorial cup." A long playoff run culminating in a championship will do a hell of a lot for my clients draft stock.

Doubtful. He was already the consensus #1 pick.

[Beaker]

Doubtful. He was already the consensus #1 pick.

So were Angelo Esposito and Phil Kessel two years before their drafts... lots can change.

An agent is supposed to look out for his client's best interests. His client's best interests may have been winning a championship instead of playing centre on a shitty team. Hall may have wanted to stay in Windsor and make that run at the Mem Cup.

You are presuming that if Hall was a centre who was moved to wing, he'd complain about that. Not every athlete is that way. Some put team goals first amazingly enough.

Look at Soccer, Wayne Rooney never asked to leave ManU when he was used in a more supporting role for Christiano Ronaldo, he just wanted to win. Everyone knew he could score a lot if he was the main guy. Now he is the guy and now he is scoring a lot.... It doesn't mean he should have demanded a transfer when he was doing more dirty work and Ronaldo getting the goals.

Some guys want whats best for the team, and maybe playing Hall on the wing was best for the team, even if he might be better at Centre.

[theoil]

So were Angelo Esposito and Phil Kessel two years before their drafts... lots can change.

An agent is supposed to look out for his client's best interests. His client's best interests may have been winning a championship instead of playing centre on a shitty team. Hall may have wanted to stay in Windsor and make that run at the Mem Cup.

You are presuming that if Hall was a centre who was moved to wing, he'd complain about that. Not every athlete is that way. Some put team goals first amazingly enough.


Some guys want whats best for the team, and maybe playing Hall on the wing was best for the team, even if he might be better at Centre.

No, what I said is that Hall didn't mind being moved to the wing because if he did he would have spoken to his agent about it. Which made me think that he didn't mind.

[Bryanbryoil]

Hall or Seguin? http://www.nhl.com/ice/newsprint.htm?id=523061

[Beaker]

No, what I said is that Hall didn't mind being moved to the wing because if he did he would have spoken to his agent about it. Which made me think that he didn't mind.

So because he didn't mind doing what would help his team the most, that means he is not suited to play centre? Thats quite the leap there.

[theoil]

So because he didn't mind doing what would help his team the most, that means he is not suited to play centre? Thats quite the leap there.

Not really.

Centres are generally more able to determine the outcome of games than wingers due to increased responsibilities both offensively and defensively.

Hall is the best player on the team.

Therefore, if Hall was playing centre you would have your best player playing the forward position most capable of determinging the outcome of games.

This would only be false if a lesser player was better suited to the unique skill set of a centre.

Obviously that is what the coach decided. That Hall was better suited to play wing.

I really don't see how that could even be a question. The coach looked at his skill set and told him where he would help the team best - as the best player on the team. He didn't put him on defence or in goal or at centre.

"Edmonton is an organization with a lot of top-end wingers and Hall is a winger," WHL scout Peter Sullivan said. "Everybody is thinking Hall will still go No. 1 despite team needs. If you have five top wingers in the organization but don't have anyone to dish them the puck, what happens? Fact is, Seguin can do everything, but it's up to them to decide which route they are going to take."

I don't know how it could be any clearer.

And, again, this argument says nothing about who is better. If Hall is better in the opinion of the Oilers's management that is who they should take.

[Beaker]

Not really.

Centres are generally more able to determine the outcome of games than wingers due to increased responsibilities both offensively and defensively.

Hall is the best player on the team.

Therefore, if Hall was playing centre you would have your best player playing the forward position most capable of determinging the outcome of games.

This would only be false if a lesser player was better suited to the unique skill set of a centre.

Obviously that is what the coach decided. That Hall was better suited to play wing.

I really don't see how that could even be a question. The coach looked at his skill set and told him where he would help the team best - as the best player on the team. He didn't put him on defence or in goal or at centre.



I don't know how it could be any clearer.

And, again, this argument says nothing about who is better. If Hall is better in the opinion of the Oilers's management that is who they should take.

I don't think its that simple. The Spits had 3 capable scoring Centres, it is possible that Hall was the one whose game would suffer the least by a move to wing.... and who is the most versatile of those guys in that he could move to wing with the least drop off.

As has been said, he's played some centre this year at times.

As has also been said, there are plenty of examples of wingers moving to centre at some point.

I think the Oilers need to forget about the C/W argument and go with the pure BPA in this draft. If they assess that to be Seguin, fine, but you shouldn't dismiss Hall on the basis solely that he's played Wing. I will grant you that the wing to centre switch is harder than the centre to wing shift, but you are getting a guy who has a ton of talent, and has played centre most of his life.

[theoil]

I don't think its that simple. The Spits had 3 capable scoring Centres, it is possible that Hall was the one whose game would suffer the least by a move to wing.... and who is the most versatile of those guys in that he could move to wing with the least drop off.

As has been said, he's played some centre this year at times.

As has also been said, there are plenty of examples of wingers moving to centre at some point.

I think the Oilers need to forget about the C/W argument and go with the pure BPA in this draft. If they assess that to be Seguin, fine, but you shouldn't dismiss Hall on the basis solely that he's played Wing. I will grant you that the wing to centre switch is harder than the centre to wing shift, but you are getting a guy who has a ton of talent, and has played centre most of his life.

And no matter how many times I say that the Oilers should choose the BPA it seems to get lost even though I type it over and over again.


And then, if there is, in their opinion, no discernable difference in overall talent I think you take the natural centre. Which is what I have been writing since this thread began.

And in spite of your arguments about Hall being most versatile I am not convinced. You don't take your best player and move him to a position where he would be less valuable to your team in order to keep lesser talents in their natural position. That just makes no sense. You would trade one of those lesser centres for a winger at some point in the season before you did that.

I just don't get this discussion unless you have decided that Hall is the BPA and find that any argument against the Oilers picking him first needs to be discredited. If he is the best then take him. And then trade Hemsky or Eberle or MPS or Penner etc for a centre.

Which is exactly what Windsor would have done if Hall was a better player at centre than on the wing.

[Beaker]

Which is exactly what Windsor would have done if Hall was a better player at centre than on the wing.

Who said he was better at Centre than on the wing. All he had to do was be equally good at both positions and then there would be a reason to move him.

[theoil]

Who said he was better at Centre than on the wing. All he had to do was be equally good at both positions and then there would be a reason to move him.

I doubt it for the reasons above. You want your best player playing at the position which has the most potential to impact a game. Of the forward positions that is centre, imo.

[I am the Liquor]

I doubt it for the reasons above. You want your best player playing at the position which has the most potential to impact a game. Of the forward positions that is centre, imo.

Are you saying Ovechkin should be a center?:stickman:

[theoil]

Are you saying Ovechkin should be a center?:stickman:

I'm not sure which post it is in this thread and I am too lazy to go look but way back near the beginning in one of my first posts I said something along the lines of 'there is a guy in Washington trying to challenge that notion'.

There is no rule in the world that covers every exception. Except, of course, for the rule that says that no rule can cover every exception. :prickle:

But I will say that everybody who wants Hall seems bound and determined to discredit any argument that might favour Seguin. Not sure why that is considering that professional scouts seem to be divided on the subject.

[I am the Liquor]

I'm not sure which post it is in this thread and I am too lazy to go look but way back near the beginning in one of my first posts I said something along the lines of 'there is a guy in Washington trying to challenge that notion'.

There is no rule in the world that covers every exception. Except, of course, for the rule that says that no rule can cover every exception. :prickle:

But I will say that everybody who wants Hall seems bound and determined to discredit any argument that might favour Seguin. Not sure why that is considering that professional scouts seem to be divided on the subject.

Im a straightforward guy. If something strikes me as bs then I am inclined to say so. Ive been sitting and watching the same bs floated out there again and again about Hall not being able to play center, being bad defensively so he cant play center, poor on the dot so he cant play center, and probably countless other pseudo reasons.

None of those things are true of course. If someone presents me with evidence that makes sense then I will consider it. I wouldnt say that scouts are divided either. Most of them are putting Hall at #1 from what I have read and heard.

[theoil]

Im a straightforward guy. If something strikes me as bs then I am inclined to say so. Ive been sitting and watching the same bs floated out there again and again about Hall not being able to play center, being bad defensively so he cant play center, poor on the dot so he cant play center, and probably countless other pseudo reasons.

None of those things are true of course. If someone presents me with evidence that makes sense then I will consider it. I wouldnt say that scouts are divided either. Most of them are putting Hall at #1 from what I have read and heard.

Well, there was a story somewhere on these boards just this morning that the Central Scouting staff are getting together to put out their ranking and that they have never seen two guys who are so close. ISS and Redline are split and every story I have read says they are neck and neck.

But just to make sure you are not talking about me I have never said that Hall can't play centre. Just that his coach in junior moved him to wing and that actions speak louder than words. To me that is far more significant than anything anybody says.

Not sure how it could be taken any other way to tell you the truth.

[Beaker]

I doubt it for the reasons above. You want your best player playing at the position which has the most potential to impact a game. Of the forward positions that is centre, imo.

Usually, however when you have a player who is clearly able to dominate his competition (something that Hall can do at the OHL level), it doesn't really matter where you play him. It might be an easier adjustment for him than for a lesser skilled guy like Henrique.

Plus this way you can load up and ensure you have your best 6 players in your top 6, not one of them centring the third line, ala Jordan Staal in Pitt.

[theoil]

Usually, however when you have a player who is clearly able to dominate his competition (something that Hall can do at the OHL level), it doesn't really matter where you play him. It might be an easier adjustment for him than for a lesser skilled guy like Henrique.

Plus this way you can load up and ensure you have your best 6 players in your top 6, not one of them centring the third line, ala Jordan Staal in Pitt.

Maybe. I just think there is a more obvious answer.

[Beaker]

Maybe. I just think there is a more obvious answer.

Malkin has been put on the wing many times to play with Crosby. Does this mean he's more effective as a winger than a Centre?

Crosby was put on the wing in the 2005 WJC to play with Bergeron, does this mean he's more effective as a winger than a Centre?

Coaches make decisions based on what fits their team the best, not what fits the player the best.

[theoil]

Malkin has been put on the wing many times to play with Crosby. Does this mean he's more effective as a winger than a Centre?

Crosby was put on the wing in the 2005 WJC to play with Bergeron, does this mean he's more effective as a winger than a Centre?

Coaches make decisions based on what fits their team the best, not what fits the player the best.

You cherry pick examples of players that have been moved for a game here or a series there. And even the examples don't really support your argument since they moved Malkin - not their best player Crosby in teh first example and in the second Crosby was the younger guy and it was a coach who barely knew him that made the switch. Not his coach for the season.

Hall is the best player on his team. You don't move your best player to a different position for basically the entire season unless you think he is more effective there.

You are torturing logic in order to reach a conclusion that you find more acceptable.

[Beaker]

Hall is the best player on his team. You don't move your best player to a different position for basically the entire season unless you think he is more effective there.

You are torturing logic in order to reach a conclusion that you find more acceptable.

It may be the case that he is more effective as a winger, but your reason for concluding that to be true is flawed.

You make the moves that best benefit your team. If there is a big drop off in play by moving Henrique to the wing, but Hall has no dropoff and is still able to dominate from that position, that in and of itself if a good reason to move Hall as opposed to Henrique. But it doesn't mean that Hall is more effective as a winger.

While your explanation is possible, its not the only one that makes sense and is not conclusive.

[theoil]

It may be the case that he is more effective as a winger, but your reason for concluding that to be true is flawed.

You make the moves that best benefit your team. If there is a big drop off in play by moving Henrique to the wing, but Hall has no dropoff and is still able to dominate from that position, that in and of itself if a good reason to move Hall as opposed to Henrique. But it doesn't mean that Hall is more effective as a winger.

While your explanation is possible, its not the only one that makes sense and is not conclusive.

If that were the case I would have traded Henrique for a winger. Since centres tend to be more highly valued than wingers it should have been easy enough.

But, whatever.

I still find it very strange (and highly unlikely) that a player in his draft year would accept a change in role that diminishes his worth as a player. Or that his agent would allow it if Hall was upset by the move.

Regardless of my opinion or your opinion he is now viewed as a winger and will be drafted as a winger and is thought of as a winger by NHL scouts.

Maybe that isn't enough to make him a winger.

[Beaker]

If that were the case I would have traded Henrique for a winger. Since centres tend to be more highly valued than wingers it should have been easy enough.

But, whatever.

May not have wanted to mess with the locker room chemistry.

May not have gotten a good offer. Wingers offered may not have been as good as Henrique.

They had a winning formula right from the day they first tried it last year... why would they mess with that?

Again its not as cut and dry as you make it out to be.

I still find it very strange (and highly unlikely) that a player in his draft year would accept a change in role that diminishes his worth as a player. Or that his agent would allow it if Hall was upset by the move.

Why is Hall upset? He wants his team to win.
How does it diminish his worth? He was able to add a Memorial Cup MVP and OHL playoff MVP because of it.

Regardless of my opinion or your opinion he is now viewed as a winger and will be drafted as a winger and is thought of as a winger by NHL scouts.

Maybe that isn't enough to make him a winger.

Possibly, but I think most teams will be looking at his skills and give him every opportunity to succeed in whatever position will help their team the most.

[theoil]

May not have wanted to mess with the locker room chemistry.
May not have gotten a good offer. Wingers offered may not have been as good as Henrique.
They had a winning formula right from the day they first tried it last year... why would they mess with that?
Again its not as cut and dry as you make it out to be.
Why is Hall upset? He wants his team to win.
How does it diminish his worth? He was able to add a Memorial Cup MVP and OHL playoff MVP because of it.
Possibly, but I think most teams will be looking at his skills and give him every opportunity to succeed in whatever position will help their team the most.

Obviously you think that a coach would move his best player out of his natural position for some perceived 'good of the team'. How moving your best player from a position he has played for his whole life would improve a team is a question I cannot think of an answer to but I recognize that you think you have one.

Obviously I disagree.

Obviously you think that an 18 year old would accept a 'demotion' from the position he has always played in the most important year of his life for his hockey career risking the loss of his status as the #1 player overall just because the other centres on his team were not as suited to such a move while it being no reflection on his ability to play centre.

Obviously I think that is highly unlikely.

Now maybe you have more to add to your argument but I have to admit that I do not. If your argument actually makes sense to you then I want to assure you that I am happy to let you keep it.

The chances of you changing my mind are nill and I suspect it is the same for you.

But Hall will be drafted as a winger and every scout, GM and coach I have heard refer to him and his position has called him that. I really don't know what else to say except that white is a pale shade of black until you get to the paint store.

[Beaker]

Obviously you think that a coach would move his best player out of his natural position for some perceived 'good of the team'. How moving your best player from a position he has played for his whole life would improve a team is a question I cannot think of an answer to but I recognize that you think you have one.

Obviously I disagree.

Obviously you think that an 18 year old would accept a 'demotion' from the position he has always played in the most important year of his life for his hockey career risking the loss of his status as the #1 player overall just because the other centres on his team were not as suited to such a move while it being no reflection on his ability to play centre.

For the record he was moved last year, as a 17 year old and before his draft year. He has remained a winger this year. His and the team's success with him as a winger probably trumps any desire he may have to demand to be moved back to centre.

But Hall will be drafted as a winger and every scout, GM and coach I have heard refer to him and his position has called him that. I really don't know what else to say except that white is a pale shade of black until you get to the paint store.

What he is drafted as does not mean he will remain there forever. The issue is not what position he plays now, but does he have the skills to play centre.

From what I've seen his skating, vision, defensive play are all attributes that can help him convert back to a centre in the future if the team that drafts him so chooses.

[theoil]

For the record he was moved last year, as a 17 year old and before his draft year. He has remained a winger this year. His and the team's success with him as a winger probably trumps any desire he may have to demand to be moved back to centre.

What he is drafted as does not mean he will remain there forever. The issue is not what position he plays now, but does he have the skills to play centre.

From what I've seen his skating, vision, defensive play are all attributes that can help him convert back to a centre in the future if the team that drafts him so chooses.

Whatever. Maybe they convert him to a defenceman.

[Beaker]

Whatever. Maybe they convert him to a defenceman.

Yes cause thats comparable to moving him back to a position he played for pretty much the first 16 years of his life.

[Bryanbryoil]

Yes cause thats comparable to moving him back to a position he played for pretty much the first 16 years of his life.

Don't make me have to turn the hose on you two :punchballs:

[theoil]

Yes cause thats comparable to moving him back to a position he played for pretty much the first 16 years of his life.

If you want to hold out the position that Hall will be one of about 3 guys in the history of the league to go from centre to winger in junior and then back to centre at the NHL level then go for it. There is certainly a chance that it happens just like there is a chance that Gretzky comes out of retirement next season.

The odds are about the same.

[theoil]

Don't make me have to turn the hose on you two :punchballs:

No kidding. The next thing you know I will have 27,000 posts all on one subject. :prickle::prickle:

[dashingsilverfox]

No kidding. The next thing you know I will have 27,000 posts all on one subject. :prickle::prickle:

1"

[I am the Liquor]

No kidding. The next thing you know I will have 27,000 posts all on one subject. :prickle::prickle:

I thought I read somewhere once where you didnt post past page three? :grapes:

[theoil]

I thought I read somewhere once where you didnt post past page three? :grapes:

On the boreds I try to stay out of it.

I just really don't get this. Maybe I am dense but I truly don't understand why people insist that "Hall can play centre" in a conversation about two players where one played centre and one played wing.

The only thing that makes it make sense is that you want Hall and don't want to hear any argument that doesn't give him the advantage.

I don't get that. It frames the discussion to a pre-determined conclusion.

[theoil]

1"

???

[I am the Liquor]

On the boreds I try to stay out of it.

I just really don't get this. Maybe I am dense but I truly don't understand why people insist that "Hall can play centre" in a conversation about two players where one played centre and one played wing.

The only thing that makes it make sense is that you want Hall and don't want to hear any argument that doesn't give him the advantage.

I don't get that. It frames the discussion to a pre-determined conclusion.

No. Its simply because I believe it is a non issue. He is perfectly capable of playing center or wing. In the nhl. His coach is on the record saying this. He outlined his reasons for doing so. Is he a liar? A shill? I dont see why he would do that. What does he have to gain by it? The player is gone forever in a couple of months or less.

[Beaker]

On the boreds I try to stay out of it.

I just really don't get this. Maybe I am dense but I truly don't understand why people insist that "Hall can play centre" in a conversation about two players where one played centre and one played wing.

The only thing that makes it make sense is that you want Hall and don't want to hear any argument that doesn't give him the advantage.

I don't get that. It frames the discussion to a pre-determined conclusion.

I will not dispute that its more likely that Seguin is a centre in the pros than Hall. That's not even debateable

The point I'm trying to make here is that just because Hall played wing, doesn't mean he has to at the next level... nor does just because Seguin played centre means he'll 100% be a centre at the next level. Yes it is more likely that the guy already playing there will end up there, but its not a foregone conclusion.

One thing you need from your scouts is the ability to project how a player's skills will translate at the next level. They need to identify whether or not Hall could transition to centre, and whether or not Seguin could transition to wing. Does Hall have the necessary defence, passing, vision to be a centre? Is Seguin lacking in any of these areas? These are things that can get masked in Junior but will appear at the pro level, and the scouts have to identify it.

Lets remember these aren't AHL coaches, they are OHL coaches, their goal is clear, to win games, not to necessarily balance that with what is best for a player's development as an AHL coach can.

To say... oh he's played position x all through his junior career so that is where he is best suited, takes away an essential task of the scout.